Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

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Paleo2
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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:54 pm

Cadfael wrote:Image


This is the most intelligent thing you have posted recently. Quite true.

The fact of the matter is this:

No society in human history has been able to survive long without a lot of young men willing to fight and die for that society.

There is even a small group of islands part of India that have avoided modern contact because they kill everyone who lands on their islands.

When a society becomes corrupt, the leaders exploit the altruism of these young men by sending them to die for genocide, imperialism and corporate greed. Look at our Indian wars, or the Mexican American War or the genocide in the Philippines or the invasion of Haiti to retrieve assets for Citibank.

Yet we honor our brave men who fought for United Brands, oops I mean the United States. We also honor brave men who fought against us. There are graveyards of German soldiers in Russia, for example.

Why? Because our nation, as pure as it is or as corrupt as it is, cannot survive without these brave young men.

That is why we have the Wall in DC with the names of the American soldiers who died in Vietnam. That was a truly horrible war. We killed millions of people for a failed cause of Imperialism. Yet we very properly honor the brave men, and in some cases women, who paid the unlltimate sacrifice for the dishonorable leaders of our country.

I had ancestors who fought on both sides of the Civil War. I had close friends who were Vietnam War vets. I despise the Confederacy, and I despise what we Americans did in Vietnam. Yet I think the soldiers in our lost war deserve honor. Yet I think the soldiers of the Lost Cause deserve honor. The dead soldiers deserve the most honor, because they sacrificed their lives for their society.

When I was growing up in Arkansas in the 60s and 70s I couldn’t understand why many southerners couldn’t get over the Civil War after more than 100 years. Now I wonder why many Madisonians, especially our elected leaders, cannot get over a war fought more than 150 years ago.

Paleo2
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Re: Operation Iraqi Liberation

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:58 pm

penquin wrote:
Cadfael wrote:
penquin wrote:Do you feel the same way about US troops who are fought in Vietnam and/or Iraq? Are they all considered "Big Oil" (or whatever the term may be) in your mind?
yes.


I disagree with your opinion, but appericate your candor and straight-forwardness.


I concur.

My opinion and Cadfael are very different, but I find Cadfael’s posts to be refreshingly honest and truthful.

So I most respectfully disagree with Cadfael on the point of what honor should be given to soldiers who fought in unjust wars. I agree with Cadfael about the unjust wars.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Bwis53 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:01 pm

Paleo2 wrote:
Bwis53 wrote:Ugh! So that's why we got Trump!


Perhaps. I fear the Gods will punish us for this somehow with something truly terrible. Perhaps an EF-5 tornado, or 40 days and nights of flooding, a plague of locusts, or re-election of Scott Walker. I'm not sure which of these would be the worst.
My parents came from Germany and taught me not be racist. My father had a Jewish neighbor with the same first name and the same birthday. I wish I could again have the conversation with the neighbors about how they could forgive and celebrate their birthdays together. It would be an even deeper conversation now, than it was 30 years ago. (Former US soldiers went back to Vietnam and met their former enemies. Both sides wept.)

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:15 pm

Bwis53 wrote:
Paleo2 wrote:
Bwis53 wrote:Ugh! So that's why we got Trump!


Perhaps. I fear the Gods will punish us for this somehow with something truly terrible. Perhaps an EF-5 tornado, or 40 days and nights of flooding, a plague of locusts, or re-election of Scott Walker. I'm not sure which of these would be the worst.
My parents came from Germany and taught me not be racist. My father had a Jewish neighbor with the same first name and the same birthday. I wish I could again have the conversation with the neighbors about how they could forgive and celebrate their birthdays together. It would be an even deeper conversation now, than it was 30 years ago. (Former US soldiers went back to Vietnam and met their former enemies. Both sides wept.)


There were many cases of fomer Union and Confederate soldiers meeting after the war to shake hands. This went on for decades.

I had an interesting discussion with my mother, a former Poly Sci professor about some of these issues. She noted how the south was completely devastated after the Civil War, and the real reconstruction didn’t begin until the FDR Administration and the TVA and rural electrification. For example: both of her parents had advanced degrees, but none of her grandparents even attended college. Both of her grandfathers were sons of medical doctors. They had been second or later sons of plantation owners, and with primogeniture they left the farm and became educated professionals. After the Civil War there was no money in the South so the doctors couldn’t afford to send their kids to college even when tuition was free. One of her grandfathers did wind up as a successful businessman, even without any college education.

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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby DCB » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:47 pm

Paleo2 wrote: If we honor the men who fought under Custer and Sherman and Sheridan, why not honor the soldiers who fought under Lee?

I disagree that traitors need to be 'honored'.
But if you want to have a memorial to their war efforts, it has no place in the cemetery. Move it to Camp Randall, if you want.

Why should confederate soldiers be the only ones at Forest Hill with a 'special' memorial?

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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:51 pm

Paleo2 wrote: If we honor the men who fought under Custer and Sherman and Sheridan, why not honor the soldiers who fought under Lee?

Now that some of the heat is dissipated, I remember that in excavations of Custer's last stand and other places with fallen cavalry, they have discovered that most of them were about fifteen years old or so, and suffered from multiple sorts of spinal and joint ailments that had to have been extremely painful even at rest but especially so when in the saddle.

So, basically the cavalry consisted of maimed and hurting children led by psychopaths. I can't find it in me to "honor" them but I do pity them and their lot. The rank and file were doing the best they could with what they had. Their officers were monsters.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby david cohen » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:30 pm

I may have missed it, but exactly when is the monument scheduled for removal? I'm guessing under the cover of darkness? Or are they awaiting legal challenges?

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Stu Levitan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:06 pm

It's a registered historic cemetery with Native American mounds. Has to be reviewed and approved by State Historic Preservation Office and maybe Secretary of Interior

Paleo2
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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:53 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:It's a registered historic cemetery with Native American mounds. Has to be reviewed and approved by State Historic Preservation Office and maybe Secretary of Interior


Well, that complicates things a bit, doesn't it?

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gargantua » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:01 pm

Paleo2 wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:It's a registered historic cemetery with Native American mounds. Has to be reviewed and approved by State Historic Preservation Office and maybe Secretary of Interior


Well, that complicates things a bit, doesn't it?

Maybe. Then you remember who the President and Governor are, and the kind of people that they choose to run the agencies, so, maybe not.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:02 am

gargantua wrote:
Paleo2 wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:It's a registered historic cemetery with Native American mounds. Has to be reviewed and approved by State Historic Preservation Office and maybe Secretary of Interior


Well, that complicates things a bit, doesn't it?

Maybe. Then you remember who the President and Governor are, and the kind of people that they choose to run the agencies, so, maybe not.


What I meant is having several governments involved complicates the Madison Common Council getting the centograph removed.

There are a lot of things one could say about the Sec of Interior, Ryan Zinke. Trendy woke liberal is not one of them.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:35 am

After watching Spike Lee's BlacKKKlansman, I think the City made a wise choice. Germany removed it's symbols of Nazism. A Sieg Heil will land you in jail.

As much as I can appreciate the 'heritage' of the South, we can all do w/o reviving that part of it.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:55 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:After watching Spike Lee's BlacKKKlansman, I think the City made a wise choice. Germany removed it's symbols of Nazism. A Sieg Heil will land you in jail.

As much as I can appreciate the 'heritage' of the South, we can all do w/o reviving that part of it.


Should the French close down La Cambre Cemetery?

Those horrible, horrible French! Honoring the dead soldiers who fought for Nazi Germany!

The French just ain’t as Woke as Madison’s trendy liberal government.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby penquin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:04 pm

pjbogart wrote:Confederate monument = "good".

Yeah, he's a Nazi.


I beleive that the issue is far more nuanced than you're willing to (able to?) admit, and rather it appears you are simply looking for any reason to slap an ugly label on those you have a difference of political opinion with.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:35 pm

Paleo2 wrote: The French just ain’t as Woke as Madison’s trendy liberal government.


Here's how France treats traitors...
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/worl ... etain.html

And how about Germany, anyway?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... any-215510

Russia?
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html

In 1991, when the Soviet Union was breaking up and the promise of democracy was in the air, Moscow and other cities across the former U.S.S.R. rushed to change the names of streets and squares bearing Soviet-era names. Hundreds of statues of Vladimir Lenin, the leader of the Bolshevik Revolution, came down, some by force and some by a democratic vote.... So did monuments to many other Soviet luminaries.

A statue of Felix Dzerzhinsky, the founder of the Soviet secret police agency that was the precursor to the KGB... Moscow City Council voted in October 1991 to dismantle the Dzerzhinsky statue, which was toppled by demonstrators two months earlier...


Spain?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/ ... atue-spain

Iraq?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firdos_Sq ... estruction

Those trendy Madison liberals are pretty powerful controlling the rest of the world like that.


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