Harvey Weinstein

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gozer
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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby gozer » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:37 pm

not with standing that it is uncouth, counter to manners which should have been taught at home in pre-adolescence, and for those and the following reasons the subject of a taboo which has built up over centuries, telling off-colour jokes i mixed company can spiral into a problem if some people object and others hit the accelerator -- that is just common sense, and remember there are also religiously commnitted people of both and other genders who can legitiimately have trouble with it. save it for after 17.00 -- it doesn't sound like that much of an imposition.

on the other hand, right down the road in milwaukee we had the index case of management misusing this kind of thing as leverage against someone with whom they have some other problem, the infamous clit case of 1997.

u hear of people using this kind of thing against people who have relationships with co-workers, even if the power differential is non-existent or has been rectified; the cases i have personally heard of involved third-party complaints, which are definitiely unethical for them to process unless they can find actually affected people who are having problems because of it . . . typically ham-fisted response to it which i know is not allowed in continental europe because of privacy laws and so forth, folks in the united kingdom, republic of ireland and canada may be even more strongly protected, i am under the impression that the situation is similar in many south american and pacific rim countries . . .

as much as a lot of the rest of the world derisively laughs at this situation, u don't see many of them relocating because they think it will be like getting 250 tickets to the improv every year . . .
Last edited by gozer on Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:28 pm

Cadfael wrote:
Igor wrote:I think now it could probably also cover things like overhearing off-color jokes, guys complaining about their girlfriend/wife, etc.

Sorry, I'm not following you. Could you expand on that a bit?


People telling blonde jokes, having a Swedish Bikini Team calendar at their desk, etc. Back in the 80's there were two he-whores I worked with that would inevitably spend 15 minutes Friday morning talking to each other about their experiences at one of the local meat markets the night before, loudly enough that the woman that sat in their area could hear it. Perhaps a guy who is known around the office for visually "checking out" women as they walk by, but who does not interact with them in any inappropriate verbal or physical way. At one point our company had a small department that was about 6 men and 6 women - all the men were shy, and almost all the women were the kind that liked off color humor. I think any of those situations now could be called sexual harassment, while 20 years ago they may have been categorized as just inappropriate or annoying.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Madsci » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:27 pm

Igor wrote:
Madsci wrote:In my experience all women have had to deal with sexual harassment at some point in theirs lives. And a majority of them have also been sexually assaulted.


Some of that may be dependent on the definition of sexual harassment. When I first attended a corporate awareness session in the early 90's, it was defined as either being related to physical contact, or statements that indicated that they would gain or be denied employment, promotions, favoritism etc. if one did or didn't "cooperate".

I think now it could probably also cover things like overhearing off-color jokes, guys complaining about their girlfriend/wife, etc.

I am referring to unwanted touching or verbal threats. You are man-splaining.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:48 pm

Madsci wrote:
Igor wrote:
Madsci wrote:In my experience all women have had to deal with sexual harassment at some point in theirs lives. And a majority of them have also been sexually assaulted.


Some of that may be dependent on the definition of sexual harassment. When I first attended a corporate awareness session in the early 90's, it was defined as either being related to physical contact, or statements that indicated that they would gain or be denied employment, promotions, favoritism etc. if one did or didn't "cooperate".

I think now it could probably also cover things like overhearing off-color jokes, guys complaining about their girlfriend/wife, etc.

I am referring to unwanted touching or verbal threats. You are man-splaining.


Very well, maybe you are using the more limited definition of the term sexual harassment, which is fine - you didn't really qualify it. There are others that absolutely don't agree with you, and take a much broader view of what constitutes sexual harassment.

In fact, even using a sexist term such as mansplaining could be considered inappropriate in a work setting.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Cadfael » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:54 pm

Igor wrote:In fact, even using a sexist term such as mansplaining could be considered inappropriate in a work setting.

Okay now you're getting into some interesting territory.

Sure, us men make more money and have all the power but dammit, women have repeatedly hurt our feelings.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:16 pm

Cadfael wrote:Sure, us men make more money and have all the power but dammit, women have repeatedly hurt our feelings.


An average man has more power than an average woman. This does not mean that an individual man necessarily has more power than an individual woman. I can't see any possible situation where using a term like mansplaining is going to result in a more positive workplace.

There has been a word for that for many years - it is called being condescending, and it can apply equally to everyone.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Cadfael » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:36 pm

Ah. The "all lives matter" tactic. There are members of the ruling class who aren't receiving some of the ruling class benefits.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:46 pm

Cadfael wrote:Ah. The "all lives matter" tactic. There are members of the ruling class who aren't receiving some of the ruling class benefits.


So you feel that we would be better served as a society if we use more gender-specific terms for behavior we find unpleasant or offensive?

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby gozer » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:00 pm

so do people here see how it may be possible that on this issue many men and women, management, workers, and adminstration, are at one anothers' throats about this kind of thing? does anybody really think this was an accident?

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Madsci » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:53 pm

Igor wrote:
Cadfael wrote:Sure, us men make more money and have all the power but dammit, women have repeatedly hurt our feelings.


An average man has more power than an average woman. This does not mean that an individual man necessarily has more power than an individual woman. I can't see any possible situation where using a term like mansplaining is going to result in a more positive workplace.

There has been a word for that for many years - it is called being condescending, and it can apply equally to everyone.

I saw it as a man trying to explain what a woman is saying but making some assumptions that are way off base. You were being a jerk.
That said, I am tempted to name one of our next male goat kids - Igor. Then I get to castrate him. Now that is mean!

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Cadfael » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:09 pm

There are a finite number of reasons why one is subjected to condescension or inappropriate behavior in the workplace:
1. A person is condescending to everyone except a small circle of people they consider equal.
2. A person chooses a belief system that makes certain language or actions inappropriate.
3. A person exhibits traits that cause certain people to treat them inappropriately or condescendingly.
4. An entire demographic is considered by another demographic to be sub par in intelligence and/or importance.

If anyone can come up with more reasons I would appreciate it. I can't think of any.

Way back there in another life, we were taught that a workplace cannot fix all of its problems at once. There are too many and the changes necessary to fix one problem have to be implemented and then the workplace has to adjust to those changes before any more changes can be introduced. It must be done piecemeal. (It is possible to make several changes at once if the workplace is so drastically changed that everything is different, such as a move to a new physical location and an entirely new system, but it's an extremely complicated task with a fairly high probability of failure.)

So the changes are usually done in stages, using the 80/20 rule: eighty percent of the trouble is caused by twenty percent of the problems. You identify the troubles and the problems, and you work on the problem causing the most trouble. When you're pretty sure that's taken care of, work on the problem that's now causing the most trouble.

So we've got four problems.
1 We have condescending people, and people prone to inappropriate behavior in our workplaces.

2 We have people of both genders whose belief systems cause them to find certain language and actions inappropriate even if most of the workplace does not.

3 Some women and some men behave in such a manner that cause some men and women to see them as prey, less intelligent, easily manipulated, or easily taken advantage of in some way.

4. Most women are seen by most men as less intelligent and generally less capable than men, and most workplaces allow their alpha males to sexually harass and abuse the women around them as long as they keep it within certain unwritten limits.

Maybe it's not "most." I think it is, but I'm willing to word it differently if everyone thinks it should be "a large percentage" or something like that.

Now. Which of those four problems is causing the most trouble?

I think I'll leave it right there and see what Igor thinks of what I've got so far. If these statements aren't acceptable then I might as well stop and just go back to watching.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:13 pm

Madsci wrote: I saw it as a man trying to explain what a woman is saying but making some assumptions that are way off base. You were being a jerk.
That said, I am tempted to name one of our next male goat kids - Igor. Then I get to castrate him. Now that is mean!


Not sure how was I trying to explain what you were saying? I was offering my own independent opinion in response to your post, not explaining your opinion. Unless of course me having an opinion on this issue is the crux of the matter - in that case, I guess we just will have to disagree.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:45 pm

Cadfael wrote:4. Most women are seen by most men as less intelligent and generally less capable than men, and most workplaces allow their alpha males to sexually harass and abuse the women around them as long as they keep it within certain unwritten limits.


If you think it is either "most" or "a large percentage", then I think we will have to agree to disagree. I work in a male dominated industry, but at a company where the staff is probably 70/30 male, and the managers are about 50/50. We generally hire about the same distribution of capable and "less capable" employees of both genders. And we definitely are told to abide by the more stringent definition of harassment that I mentioned earlier - there is no way someone is going to have posters of the sexy firemen or the bikini calendar in our workspace.

Does that mean harassment does not occur - of course not. I'm sure there are situations of which I am not aware. But I can't recall a single situation where I considered a person less capable because of their sex, and don't ever recall hearing someone making a staement along those lines. Capable employees are too important to dismiss just because of their gender.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Cadfael » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:50 pm

Igor wrote:
Cadfael wrote:4. Most women are seen by most men as less intelligent and generally less capable than men, and most workplaces allow their alpha males to sexually harass and abuse the women around them as long as they keep it within certain unwritten limits.


If you think it is either "most" or "a large percentage", then I think we will have to agree to disagree. I work in a male dominated industry, but at a company where the staff is probably 70/30 male, and the managers are about 50/50. We generally hire about the same distribution of capable and "less capable" employees of both genders. And we definitely are told to abide by the more stringent definition of harassment that I mentioned earlier - there is no way someone is going to have posters of the sexy firemen or the bikini calendar in our workspace.

Does that mean harassment does not occur - of course not. I'm sure there are situations of which I am not aware. But I can't recall a single situation where I considered a person less capable because of their sex, and don't ever recall hearing someone making a staement along those lines. Capable employees are too important to dismiss just because of their gender.

Okay then. What percentage do you think it is? Overall, I mean. Not just in your industry.

And could you confirm whether or not you're using your own experience inside your own workplace as a gauge for how the situation is in every industry? In other words are you saying your workplace is okay so the others must be too? You've asked females within your workplace if your judgement is correct, right?

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Re: Harvey Weinstein

Postby Igor » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:15 pm

Cadfael wrote:You've asked females within your workplace if your judgement is correct, right?


Certainly women would be the people to ask if they have been "harassed as long as it is kept within limits" - I can only speak to the policies that the company avows, and appears to enforce. Tangentially, I can also speak to our dearth of alpha males, and the lack of any sort of gossip related to harassment situations. Obviously, if all women who were being harassed kept quiet about it, it is possible that nothing would have leaked out. But the fact that our division is led by a woman makes it seem unlikely that those concerns would be dismissed out of hand, even if it were a single instance.

As far as "Most women are seen by most men as less intelligent and generally less capable than men" - the mindset of those men would seem to be most accurately answered by those men.


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