"Murder after Birth"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
gozer
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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby gozer » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:20 am

pjbogart wrote:As other's have mentioned, the "after-birth abortion" controversy seems like a coordinated propaganda campaign, probably an effort to distract from so much of the embarrassing news coming out of the White House lately. I first heard about the new abortion outrage on Rush Limbaugh, predictably, and he had a lot of fake piety cued up to complain about Democrats murdering babies.


I suppose that is possible . . . but it could just as well be a dust up betwixt the two sides on the issue for the umpteenth time, on the other hand . . . even a dog & pony show . . .

speaking of the abortion issue in general, i am wondering if anyone knows of anyone who has moved from one side to the other based on a sincere reassessment of the whole thing. i don't think there are a lot of them as it is the most polarising issue of which i can think -- it was the only thing that the east german volkskammer actually split on at one point for crying out loud and it was an intractable issue in communist yugoslavia, poland, and czechoslovakia too; the roumanian case even more so . . .

of course there are flip-flopping politicians galore, and i think that if they look hard enough far enough back they can find trump statements which are both neutral and/or de facto pro-choice and outright pro-choice . . . not an exculpatory thing as far as i am concerned, but one which means that yes, he is a politician like a lot of the others, not a deep-thinking philosopher, and he is a disrupter only in name . . . the reason? well, he was mr establishment post-modern techno-industrial megastate all along, a democrat and a mildly liberal* one at that for many years then a perot-ventura-penny independent . . . remember all the trouble he had out west for divorcing multiple times and attending the opening of studio 54? and the p***y grabbing tape is not exactly moral majority-pat robertson-national affairs briefing-saddlebacking fare, yes?

Of course, no plans to help children or poor people.


and in other news, water is wet, naturally -- how can some people sleep at night?


---
* in both the u s democratic party and f d p senses . . .

you must be joking
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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby you must be joking » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:30 am

All,

What don't you understand about what the law in New York says?

Read the text here: https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2017/S2796

Note that the law says: EXPLANATION--Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets
[ ] is old law to be omitted.

§ 2. The public health law is amended by adding a new article 25-A to
9 read as follows:
10 ARTICLE 25-A
11 REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH ACT
12 SECTION 2599-AA. ABORTION.
13 § 2599-AA. ABORTION. 1. A HEALTH CARE PRACTITIONER LICENSED, CERTI-
14 FIED, OR AUTHORIZED UNDER TITLE EIGHT OF THE EDUCATION LAW, ACTING WITH-
15 IN HIS OR HER LAWFUL SCOPE OF PRACTICE, MAY PERFORM AN ABORTION WHEN,
16 ACCORDING TO THE PRACTITIONER'S REASONABLE AND GOOD FAITH PROFESSIONAL
17 JUDGMENT BASED ON THE FACTS OF THE PATIENT'S CASE: THE PATIENT IS WITHIN
18 TWENTY-FOUR WEEKS FROM THE COMMENCEMENT OF PREGNANCY, OR THERE IS AN
19 ABSENCE OF FETAL VIABILITY, OR THE ABORTION IS NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE
20 PATIENT'S LIFE OR HEALTH.

* For the sake of space I have left out lines 21 through 26*

27 law are REPEALED, and the article heading of article 125 of the penal
28 law is amended to read as follows:
29 HOMICIDE,[ABORTION] AND RELATED OFFENSES
30 § 6. Section 125.00 of the penal law is amended to read as follows:
31 § 125.00 Homicide defined.
32 Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person [or an
33 unborn child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twen-
34 ty-four weeks] under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in
35 the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, OR criminally
36 negligent homicide[, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in
37 the first degree].
§ 7. The section heading, opening paragraph and subdivision 1 of
39 section 125.05 of the penal law are amended to read as follows:
40 Homicide[, abortion] and related offenses; [definitions of terms]
41 DEFINITION.
42 The following [definitions are] DEFINITION IS applicable to this arti-
43 cle:
44 [1.] "Person," when referring to the victim of a homicide, means a
45 human being who has been born and is alive.

Strip this down a bit of the bracketed areas and here is what it says:

HOMICIDE AND RELATED OFFENSES
30 § 6. Section 125.00 of the penal law is amended to read as follows:
31 § 125.00 Homicide defined.
32 Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in
35 the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, OR criminally
36 negligent homicide
§ 7. The section heading, opening paragraph and subdivision 1 of
39 section 125.05 of the penal law are amended to read as follows:
40 Homicide and related offenses;
41 DEFINITION.
42 The following DEFINITION IS applicable to this arti-
43 cle:
44 "Person," when referring to the victim of a homicide, means a
45 human being who has been born and is alive.

So in New York you can have an abortion at any time leading up to the time of birth if the person giving birth decides that say her mental health would be compromised in any way if she went through with a delivery of a healthy baby.

This law also means that a person is only a person who has been born and is alive. So if a man throws a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs which causes the death of her unborn, viable, wanted baby, he can NOT be convicted of killing the unborn child since the unborn child is now considered nothing more than a "product of conception" and has no legal standing.

The Governor of Virginia wanted to go even further and let the woman and the doctor decide if the child should live even after the child was born. The legislature in Rhode Island and New Mexico are considering similar legislation.

The question I have to you is: How long will it take before we expand the list of those who are Not considered as "Persons"? And who is next on that list? The developmentally disabled children? Those who are elderly and have dementia?

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby jman111 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:05 am

you must be joking wrote:* For the sake of space I have left out lines 21 through 26*

Ha!

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby HawkHead » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:59 am

There were 699,202 abortions in 2012 reported to the CDC. 0.17% were performed after 21 weeks or roughly 1,200 abortions performed after 21 weeks. Over 600 of the 1,200 were terminated by week 24. Leaving only 600 abortions performed during weeks 24-40 weeks.

The vast majority of those remaining abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities. So we are maybe talking about a handful of actual cases were a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy right before birth every year without a “valid” medical reason.

In 2014 the Republican lead WI government kicked 92,000 low income people off of BadgerCare Plus leaving them uninsured.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby HawkHead » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:13 am

jman111 wrote:
you must be joking wrote:* For the sake of space I have left out lines 21 through 26*

Ha!

It is like a James O’Keefe video.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby HawkHead » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:22 am

In 2014, the CDC reported 5,578 abortions at 21 weeks or later. That was 1.3% of all abortion reported that year. So projecting out, the majority of those abortions were performed between weeks 21-24. Once again leaving at most 50 case.

In 2017, 700,000 more Americans do not have health insurance thanks to Republican efforts across the national to replace and sabotage Obamacare.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby you must be joking » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:26 am

HawkHead wrote:There were 699,202 abortions in 2012 reported to the CDC. 0.17% were performed after 21 weeks or roughly 1,200 abortions performed after 21 weeks. Over 600 of the 1,200 were terminated by week 24. Leaving only 600 abortions performed during weeks 24-40 weeks.

The vast majority of those remaining abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities. So we are maybe talking about a handful of actual cases were a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy right before birth every year without a “valid” medical reason.

In 2014 the Republican lead WI government kicked 92,000 low income people off of BadgerCare Plus leaving them uninsured.


So you are still saying that a fully viable BABY, who can live outside the womb can be aborted?

Is that okay with you?

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby HawkHead » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:47 am

you must be joking wrote:
HawkHead wrote:There were 699,202 abortions in 2012 reported to the CDC. 0.17% were performed after 21 weeks or roughly 1,200 abortions performed after 21 weeks. Over 600 of the 1,200 were terminated by week 24. Leaving only 600 abortions performed during weeks 24-40 weeks.

The vast majority of those remaining abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities. So we are maybe talking about a handful of actual cases were a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy right before birth every year without a “valid” medical reason.

In 2014 the Republican lead WI government kicked 92,000 low income people off of BadgerCare Plus leaving them uninsured.


So you are still saying that a fully viable BABY, who can live outside the womb can be aborted?

Is that okay with you?


I don’t believe in abortion. I don’t think my religious beliefs should influence anyone else’s medical decisions which should be between a patient and their doctor.

I find it very ironic that you post this screaming and yelling about maybe 40 medical cases when you are happy to kick hunderds of thoudsands of people off of health insurance leading to hundreds more if not thousands more people dying from lack of adequate care.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:15 am

HawkHead wrote:I find it very ironic that you post this screaming and yelling about maybe 40 medical cases when you are happy to kick hunderds of thoudsands of people off of health insurance leading to hundreds more if not thousands more people dying from lack of adequate care.

This.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby snoqueen » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:46 am

I also find it ironic that you think it's right or humane for the government to force a woman to carry a dead baby to term, or a baby with its brain missing or its organs developing misshapen and outside the body. That would be an unimaginably horrible experience. And if you're concerned about the suffering of this nonviable infant, why do you think the right thing is to prolong its life of suffering? These cases are so rare and extreme each one needs to be decided on its own, among the parents and their medical and religious (if any) advisers. Why should a court or legislature know better? All choices cannot be determined ahead of time. If they are, they're no longer choices.

Your priorities are extremely weird. In addition, I personally find it offensive to prioritize the opinions of a bunch of older, unrelated men over the decision of one younger, very much related woman. But that's another topic.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby gozer » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:45 pm

HawkHead wrote:There were 699,202 abortions in 2012 reported to the CDC. 0.17% were performed after 21 weeks or roughly 1,200 abortions performed after 21 weeks. Over 600 of the 1,200 were terminated by week 24. Leaving only 600 abortions performed during weeks 24-40 weeks.

The vast majority of those remaining abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities. So we are maybe talking about a handful of actual cases were a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy right before birth every year without a “valid” medical reason.

In 2014 the Republican lead WI government kicked 92,000 low income people off of BadgerCare Plus leaving them uninsured.


this is the heart of the matter. it doesn't get all that more clear-cut. they want to prevent abortions, right? how about working on the demand side of the equation too by preventing the cases wherein women are backed into a corner economically? I cannot imagine it is something people do for fun . . .

walker et al being such an advocate for wisconsonians even so far as to slap away uncle sam's hand when he was trying to give wisconsin back money that wisconsin taxpayers had bloody given to the fucken federal government; furthermore, i may be repeating myself, and not to put too fine a point on it, but:
https://mic.com/articles/129542/here-s- ... .CUm7psuCL
https://binged.it/2SjZqR3

i defy some of these folks to really do the math and crunch the numbers -- i mean, look here u pimpsticks, how much skin off your arse is it really? or anybody's? a decent across-the-board import tariff (which is how they used to raise money for operations) or maybe even a single tax big s big t could raise enough money to take care of mothers and kids in all cases, not to mention how much a *really* progressive income tax could raise . . . and the whole thing about government assistance making people dependent and immoral? fork u -- the government isn't supposed to legislate morality anyways, and do these randian objectivist spencerian conservatives who like the dog-eat-dog ethic really care about these people anyways? dog-eat-dog competition is such a great thing in all spheres of human endeavour, right? all right, how about i compete with u by servicing your wife in the ways u cannot because u are so pigheaded and insensitive, and probably cannot get it up eh? I mean, that is the root reason that u all are so mean-spirited and want to mind everybody's business (what kind of "conservative" is that, eh?) right? call it the invisible hand on clits . . .

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby pjbogart » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:05 pm

you must be joking wrote:So you are still saying that a fully viable BABY, who can live outside the womb can be aborted?

Is that okay with you?


Are we talking about fully viable babies? I'm not sure that we are, and I'm absolutely certain that we can't trust your "news" outlets to let us know. And how do you define "fully viable baby"? Is that just a gestation/time thing or is the health of the baby and/or mother relevant? Surely there are instances where a doctor determines that a baby cannot survive birth or even a few days past birth and while the baby is technically viable based upon length of gestation, it's not actually viable.

I'm guessing you're not going to see a breakdown of such issues on FoxNews, though. They'd rather dupe you with some talking points than try to educate you. Fortunately for them, you're OK with that.

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby gargantua » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:35 pm

There is some confusion about what a couple of these proposed laws actually do. In response to a question, one sponsor agreed that, if the mother and doctor agree, there may be circumstances in which it would be legal under that law to end the life of the baby after it was delivered. That what started all this angst. The sponsor subsequently said that her response was misinterpreted, but I heard it. She can't unsay it. She may not have understood the question, but it's hard to misinterpret "yes". I am very uncomfortable with what I've learned about the extent of that law.
Oh, and the other thing the right is upset about is the "why is it murder if an unborn baby dies due to an act of violence, but it isn't if the mother aborts it?"
Oh, I don't know, maybe because the mother gets to make that choice, but some random mugger doesn't?

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby you must be joking » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:11 am

gargantua wrote:There is some confusion about what a couple of these proposed laws actually do. In response to a question, one sponsor agreed that, if the mother and doctor agree, there may be circumstances in which it would be legal under that law to end the life of the baby after it was delivered. That what started all this angst. The sponsor subsequently said that her response was misinterpreted, but I heard it. She can't unsay it. She may not have understood the question, but it's hard to misinterpret "yes". I am very uncomfortable with what I've learned about the extent of that law.
Oh, and the other thing the right is upset about is the "why is it murder if an unborn baby dies due to an act of violence, but it isn't if the mother aborts it?"
Oh, I don't know, maybe because the mother gets to make that choice, but some random mugger doesn't?


gargantua,

Good points, glad you took the time to actually listen to what Kathy Tran, the person sponsoring the bill in Virginia allowing late term abortions.

You can see her remarks here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMFzZ5I30dg

You can see by her remarks that clearly she is uncomfortable with the line of questions she was asked as she openly admitted to allowing infanticide.

But to your other point when you said:

Oh, and the other thing the right is upset about is the "why is it murder if an unborn baby dies due to an act of violence, but it isn't if the mother aborts it?"
Oh, I don't know, maybe because the mother gets to make that choice, but some random mugger doesn't?


Yeah, that's kind of like asking "Can it ever be right to say: If I beat my dog in my back yard it is okay; but if you beat my dog in my back yard it is animal cruelty?"

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Re: "Murder after Birth"

Postby Cadfael » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:03 pm

Confirmation bias. It's what's for dinner.


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