Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 7661
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby pjbogart » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:19 pm

So the nation is up in arms over the Russians spreading false information on the interwebs in the lead-up to the 2016 election. Can someone explain to me how Russian liars are somehow more sinister than American liars? Is it simply motive? Because the motives of domestic liars seems just as sinister to me as Russian liars.

When Roy spreads false information about climate change or the Gotch gives you an earful of nonsensical conservative conspiracy theories, is that somehow more palatable than foreign agents spreading the exact same lies? What if Roy or The Gotch's lies are actually just Russian propaganda repeated? Is it still different?

At what point do we start fighting this trend by recognizing that it is not simply people exercising their right to free speech. It's not illegal to be wrong, but perhaps intentionally making other people wrong should be, at the very least, censored. I'm not suggesting that differences of opinions be censored, but if you know that you're lying and you're still lying, how is that "free speech"?

Apparently, we're asking it of Facebook. Shouldn't we ask it of The Isthmus?

dooley
Forum Addict
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Madison. WI
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby dooley » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:01 am

It's the level of sophistication. I don't mean to take anything away from any specific poster's sophistry, but the propaganda alleged to have come from the Russians or Cambridge Analytica is very different from what I understand about it. Those propagandists are using everything about your Facebook feed (posts, likes, friends, zip code, birthday, etc...) to make a profile and then advertise to you in ways that play off of it. All of this to point you toward a desired out come. All of it unregulated dark money. I see some differences, at least at the Isthmus Forum you can choose not to read or reply.

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3067
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby penquin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:56 pm

pjbogart wrote:I'm not suggesting that differences of opinions be censored...


So you say, yet the only two people whom you call out by name just-so-happen to usually have a different opinion than you do.

gozer
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 5881
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 1:35 pm
Location: everywhere
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby gozer » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:35 pm

so who gets to make the decision what is disinformation and what is not?

should the united nations get to "meddle" in united states politics? if so, why not russia? why can't they pursue their interests when the united states does the same thing? a country banging the podium to put all sorts of sanctions on them and slandering their president and pointing nuclear weapons at them? hopefully both countries and the other nuclear powers are elbow-deep in "meddling" instead of going off half-cocked and blowing the planet to smithereens . . . didn't clinton's meddling in northern ireland actually fix the situation? at least for another 50 years or so? yes it did. he got some other things like that wrong, but that was pretty brilliant . . .

pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 7661
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby pjbogart » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:53 pm

I guess opinions are now facts and facts are opinions. Carry on...

gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby gargantua » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

pjbogart wrote:I guess opinions are now facts and facts are opinions. Carry on...

It's been apparent for several years now that facts don't matter to quite a few people.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 15306
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:42 pm

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby snoqueen » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:33 pm

I think it's a total failure of our public education system. People simply have no idea how to evaluate what they read, how to cross check and identify bias among sources, or how science and statistics work. Kellyanne Conway made up the absurd term "alternative facts" early in the Trump presidency and she was spot on. People believe they can operate from whatever system of "facts" they please. Sometimes they simply pick out a source they like and uncritically follow it like a religion without questioning anything at all.

Eventually these houses of cards collapse (for example, climate change denial is doomed by reality) but the process is slow enough that individuals can go for years, or for a lifetime, without having to face the consequences. At the same time, stubbornness in sticking to these alternative fact systems counts as a virtue to their adherents, so there's no incentive to be truly honorable and open to admitting one is wrong, confused, or being tricked. And there's no debate skill being taught, so people don't know how to question or how to arrive at solutions on their own.

For now, it is what it is. I think if our schools were funded well enough to attract truly excellent teachers and could afford to offer every student excellent programming, the next generation of kids would graduate knowing much more about how to sort the messages they receive from the world of politics, media, and the internet.

gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby gargantua » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:56 pm

I think that you give too much credit to logic and reason, Sno. My late mother-in-law passed in 2012 at age 85. She had some notions that were at odds with the facts. When my wife and I challenged them, we were told, in no uncertain terms that she didn't want to hear it. Her mind was made up. This isn't as new as we think it is.

pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 7661
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby pjbogart » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:52 pm

snoqueen wrote:Kellyanne Conway made up the absurd term "alternative facts" early in the Trump presidency and she was spot on. People believe they can operate from whatever system of "facts" they please. Sometimes they simply pick out a source they like and uncritically follow it like a religion without questioning anything at all.


It's confirmation bias. People don't like to be wrong so they simply believe whatever source tells them they're right.

I don't think the problem is our educational system... it's the noise. It's hard to be right when you're being bombarded with lies carefully engineered to make you feel right. The 1980's gave us Rush Limbaugh, which opened the door for FoxNews and eventually morphed into innumerable conservative websites. They don't simply peddle confirmation bias, they create a circle of wrongness. The lie you heard on Rush Limbaugh is recycled by FoxNews and then peddled endlessly on hundreds of conservative websites. The lie gets repeated so much that it's soon considered incontrovertible fact by conservative consumers.

Ten years running The Gotch was still convinced that Obama gave free phones to black people to get their votes. It was a total ruse, Obama wasn't even President when the Telecommunications Act that expanded subsidies to cellular service was passed, but that didn't stop conservatives from crowing about the Negroes and their free phones. Repetition made the lie true. And even a brilliant political analyst like The Gotch was taken for a ride.

We can deal with this in a number of ways, the most logical is to deny "journalistic" immunity to liars and propagandists. Our airwaves are actually NOT free... they're heavily regulated, but apparently they'd rather see you lie than say dirty words. That should probably change. If you can't get your facts straight, we don't have much public interest in subsidizing your efforts to disseminate your lies.

Changing broadcasting laws and libel/defamation laws will undoubtedly create an uproar among conservatives, but if the goal is to make our nation smarter and better informed, it's an uproar we should deal with. Facts, by definition, are not disputable. You don't have a right to spread false information. Drug companies can't lie about their products' effects. Stock market analysts can't lie about their conflicts of interest. Lying is actually punished by jail time in many cases. But not in the news... people can lie all they want. That needs to change.

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3067
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby penquin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:33 am

All due respect snoqueen (and yes, I have mucho respect for thee), but didn't you yourself say that actual facts didn't matter when discussing gun control and weapon bans? I seem to recall you getting upset with those who were trying to correct some blatant lies and misinformation regarding firearms, saying it didn't matter if the claims regarding these guns were truthful or not.

Not trying to play any games or pick on you personally, but this whole "facts don't matter" thing applies to all kinds of people across the political spectrum....but it's no surprise that someone like PJ will accuse only those whose political opinion he personally disagrees with. Given his long history on this forum of him trying to silence/ban those whom he disagrees with, his intentions are clear & obvious.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:12 am
Location: 77 Square Miles Surrounded By A Sea Of Reality
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby Cornelius Gotchberg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:58 am

@pjbogart;

Ten years running The Gotch was still convinced that Obama gave free phones to black people to get their votes.


Cite or STFU!


The Gotch
Last edited by Cornelius Gotchberg on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

frankiewhalen
Senior Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:27 pm

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby frankiewhalen » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:19 am

Gotch,
Sno didn't say that, pj did.

jman111
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:32 am

Uh oh
...someone that's been BUSTED for posting BOGUS claims no longer gets the benefit of the doubt.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 27945
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:47 am

frankiewhalen wrote:Gotch,
Sno didn't say that, pj did.

Also he doesn't know the difference between site and cite.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1064
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:12 am
Location: 77 Square Miles Surrounded By A Sea Of Reality
Contact:

Re: Russian Propaganda vs. Domestic Propaganda

Postby Cornelius Gotchberg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:25 am

@frankiewhalen;

Sno didn't say that, pj did.


Thanks; that's what I get (foot in mouth up to the knee) when I don't wear my glasses, and my humblest apology to @snoqueen!

@pjbogart;

Ten years running The Gotch was still convinced that Obama gave free phones to black people to get their votes.


Cite or STFU!

@Henry Vilas;

Also he doesn't know the difference between site and cite.


Um...actually I do. To wit: "It's truthful AND accurate to cite on this site that @Henry Vilas is a mush-minded, flaccidly feeble fopdoddle."

FWIW, at times I get deviSe and deviCe interchanged as the "c" is just ESE of the "s" on one's standard keyboard; I regret the error.

And seriously; with the varied-n-many knocks against youse piling up, do youse really want to add Grammar Nazi to the mix?

https://imgur.com/gallery/bkcbBFA

The Gotch


Return to “National Politics & Government”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests