They admit Russia meddled

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gozer
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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby gozer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:47 am

Cadfael wrote:Image



is that the merck logo on her right arm? (our left)

nonyuppie
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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:34 am

Cadfael wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:Clinton lost my vote because of what she had already done in government and what she said she would do if elected. It had nothing to do with her campaign strategy or skill as a campaigner. (This has nothing to do with the quote above but it's a real hassle to do it right on a Kindle and it needed to be said.)

Did you just tell us you voted for Trump?

Jill Stein

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:01 am

gargantua wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:
gargantua wrote:Occasionally, when it's really obvious, I ask a Facebook troll how the weather is in Moscow, or are the mosquitoes bad there. Hell, might as well have a little fun with it.

What's fun about having your patriotism and basic human decency questioned because you disagree with someone? It's happened to me in this forum and elsewhere and I don't like it one damn bit. But you wouldn't be the first to say that I don't have a sense of humor.


I don't know what your comment about the first part of my post has to do with my actual post. It was about different people in a different social media platform. And you didn't see the comments I was responding to, so how on earth would you know if what I said to them was appropriate or not?
You know what? Never mind. I don't care for irrational anger and I don't have to put up with it.


I object to the practice in general of accusing people of working for the Russian government because they don't go along with the currently fashionable Russophobia promoted by the Democratic Party. It's really common anywhere you go, online and off. I don't see how Facebook would be any different. I see nothing irrational about it. It usually occurs when somebody is losing an argument.

I'm hardly the only person to notice this.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:11 am

Looks more like a spot with a star in the middle to me. She's got another star that's not inside a circle, on the other wrist. To me they don't look anything like the merck logo.
Image

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:14 am

nonyuppie wrote:
Cadfael wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:Clinton lost my vote because of what she had already done in government and what she said she would do if elected. It had nothing to do with her campaign strategy or skill as a campaigner. (This has nothing to do with the quote above but it's a real hassle to do it right on a Kindle and it needed to be said.)

Did you just tell us you voted for Trump?

Jill Stein

Which was the same as not voting, which got Trump elected. Thanks much, it explains a lot about how you're trying to rationalize an incredibly stupid life choice so stubbornly.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:28 am

Been through this so many times there's not much point in doing it again. I'll just say, I disagree.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby penquin » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:00 am

Cadfael wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:
Cadfael wrote:Did you just tell us you voted for Trump?

Jill Stein

Which was the same as not voting


Sounds like Cadfael has, once again, been duped by propaganda.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:02 am

Well, yeah. Of course. Not like you could actually wonder about it. The rationalization is already in place and cemented in. But I appreciate the confirmation.

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Re: they can't admit their ignorance

Postby penquin » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:11 pm

Cadfael wrote:Not like you could actually wonder about it.


When you say stupid shit like "Which was the same as not voting", well...yeah. It doesn't leave much wiggle-room to wonder how stupid/duped you are - 'cause that's a dumbass thing to say.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Weather Bob » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:49 pm

I think Cadfael is basically correct. Voting for Stein, or Johnson, or writing in "Lizard People" or your own name or whatever, is pretty much equivalent to not voting. It's throwing away your opportunity to contribute a very small push (your vote) to steer the country towards a better outcome and away from a worse outcome.

That said ... one vote is a really small "push", at the statewide level. If all I did was cast that one vote for Clinton, I haven't done much; and if nonyuppie does lots of other good things to make the world a better place but happened to throw away that one opportunity, he's not missing much. So yelling at people for not voting, or for throwing their vote away when they could have helped stop Trump, is usually unproductive at best and counterproductive at worst.

And this is true:

nonyuppie wrote:Been through this so many times there's not much point in doing it again. I'll just say, I disagree.


I hear ya, buddy. But I'll just put my two cents in as well: remember Florida 2000. A tiny handful of votes could have thrown the Presidential election the other way, meaning no Iraq invasion, no Guantanamo Bay, no Abu Ghraib, no John Yoo, no Dick Cheney, etc. No matter how imperfect you think the Democrats are, at this point in time the Republicans are a heck of a lot worse.

Trump's election is a similar case, except the margin wasn't quite as close, so the moral cost of not voting was less awful.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:39 pm

God, I hate that argument. Gore won if all the unexamined, legal ballots were counted. The media count only included the 62,000 under votes, and not the 120,000 over-votes (mentioned in Bush V. America) where the bulk of Gore's gains were.

Despite that K. Harris and Bucky Mitchell hired a Republican firm in Texas to create a fraudulent felon voter list that totalled 92,000 when it only had 12,500 2 years prior. Rs also changed requirements for 2000: no phone call verification, SS# & DOB did not have to match. Only an 80% letter match in names. They paid DBT $4 million when the previous firm charged $12K 2 years prior. The one county that checked all the names on the list found that only 5% were actually felons. 54% of the 92,000 on the list were African-Americans who voted 92% to 94% for Gore. The rest were mostly Democrats-you have to list party affiliation on your registration in Florida, so I've read. Then the extra 13K(?) votes Buchanan got in Palm Beach due to the butterfly ballots designed by a Republican operative who switched party affiliation to Democrat 6-12 months before the election. Then the 10,000 ineligible overseas ballots that 2 counties illegally allowed Republican officials to fill in. And the fact that W's attorneys fought to include illegal overseas ballots in Bush counties so 63% were counted, while fighting to throw the same ballots out in Gore counties so only 18% were counted. Jeb also illegally sent letters to military bases reminding soldiers to vote, and letters to every county stating that county officials had to deny the right to vote to any former felon who had his voting rights restored in another state, which Florida is supposed to honor, unless they had approval from Jeb.

And after all that, if SC(R)OTUS hadn't violated the Constitution (equal protection clause) when they created a vote-count deadline that doesn't exist in law anywhere, and instead ruled to count all of the 180,000 unexamined ballots (what could be more important in any election?), Gore still would've won.

If all the votes of the people who showed up at the polls were counted, Gore won by a longshot. It wasn't even close. I hope people would focus on instead of blaming one of the few truly good guys who was instrumental in getting dozens of policies passed that actually help the whole country rather than campaign donors.

Clean Air Act
Clean Water Act
Consumer credit disclosure law
Consumer Product Safety Act
Co-Op Bank Bill
Federal Coal Mine Health and Safety Act
Foreign Corrupt Practices Act
Freedom of Information Act
Funeral home cost disclosure law
Law establishing Environmental Protection Agency
Medical Devices safety
Mine Health and Safety Act
Mobile home safety
National Automobile and Highway Traffic Safety Act
National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act
Natural Gas Pipeline Safety Act
Nuclear power safety
Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA)
Pension protection law
Safe Water Drinking Act
Tire safety & grading disclosure law
Whistleblower Protection Act
Wholesome Meat Act
Wholesome Poultry Product Act

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby BobbyB » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:49 am

Russians launched pro-Jill Stein social media blitz to help Trump win election, reports say

Some highlights:

Two days before the 2016 presidential election, an Instagram account called @woke_blacks posted a message in support of long-shot Green Party candidate Jill Stein.

“The excuse that a lost Black vote for Hillary is a Trump win is bs,” it read. “It could be late, but y’all might want to support Jill Stein instead.”


The fact that the Russian propaganda apparatus helped create awareness and support for her candidacy and promoted her candidacy is critical to our understanding of Russian interference in the 2016 election.


Weiss said Moscow's support for Stein in fact began well before she became a presidential candidate.

“The Russian embrace of fringe voices like Stein goes back more than a decade to the earlier days of RT,” said Weiss.

Weiss also noted that the Stein campaign parroted the Russian position on Ukraine in 2016 and criticized the U.S. for installing a government in Kiev “hostile to Russia.”


In the closing weeks of the campaign, RT quoted Stein suggesting that Hillary Clinton could lead the U.S. into a nuclear war with Russia and saying Trump was a safer choice.


“Is Stein a fellow traveler or a useful idiot?” Watts asked rhetorically. “I don’t know, but even after the election she played into Russia disinformation by pursuing a recount so heavily and claiming election fraud. This was a post-election coup for Kremlin propagandists.”

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby DCB » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:34 am

Weather Bob wrote:I think Cadfael is basically correct. Voting for Stein, or Johnson, or writing in "Lizard People" or your own name or whatever, is pretty much equivalent to not voting. It's throwing away your opportunity to contribute a very small push (your vote) to steer the country towards a better outcome and away from a worse outcome.

Almost entirely equivalent. Except:

After the 2016 elections, the Stein campaign demanded a vote recount.( I have no idea why, but was probably just an excuse for grifting).

After that, the WI Republicans passed a law making it harder to demand a recount. ( again, I have no idea what the motivation was)

After the recent 2018 elections, Republicans were considering asking for a recount in some of the statewide races. But they couldn't because of the law they passed.

So in some small, indirect way, voting for Stein spared us the drama of an extended recount.

But other than that, completely pointless.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:19 am

Weather Bob wrote:I'll just put my two cents in as well: remember Florida 2000. A tiny handful of votes could have thrown the Presidential election the other way, meaning no Iraq invasion, no Guantanamo Bay, no Abu Ghraib, no John Yoo, no Dick Cheney, etc. No matter how imperfect you think the Democrats are, at this point in time the Republicans are a heck of a lot worse.

Trump's election is a similar case, except the margin wasn't quite as close, so the moral cost of not voting was less awful.


People who vote lesser-evil are responsible for the fact that we only have evil as options. Counterfactual arguments include:

1) What if people had started voting for anti-war candidates in the 1980s? We might not have gotten the Clintons in the first place. We might have gotten the peace dividend we were promised instead of Cold War II.

2)What if the people who really didn't like voting for Clinton but voted for her because they were convinced that Trump was so much worse had voted third party instead? She would have been so thoroughly trounced that the Democrats wouldn't even consider nominating a pro-war candidate in 2020. As it is, there is no serious anti-war candidate even mentioned in the mainstream news organizations' lists of potential candidates.

They're going to do it to us again because they're convinced (by lesser-evil voters) that they can get away with it.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby DCB » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:08 pm

nonyuppie wrote: Counterfactual arguments include:

1) What if people had started voting for anti-war candidates in the 1980s? We might not have gotten the Clintons in the first place. We might have gotten the peace dividend we were promised instead of Cold War II.


"Counterfactual" is a nice euphemism for "naive to the point of completely out of touch with reality".

There are so many things wrong here, and I'm sure there are more astute political observers who have discussed this nonsense better than I can, but for starters:

Presidential campaigns don't create movements. Movements create constituencies that Presidential campaigns can build on. "Anti-war" candidates don't win elections because the anti-war movement is very weak and does not have a large constituency. That is a sad state of affairs, indeed. But your once-every-four-year vote is not going to change that.


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