They admit Russia meddled

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DCB
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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby DCB » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:06 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Polka_Tulk wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: Aren't you upset that Russia (with Trump's encouragement) interfered with the democratic process of the presidential election?
The only thing that will break through your stupor will be the realization that there is no evidence of Russian State meddling of the election in these reports....

Channeling Donald Trump, I see.

The arguments that P_T makes - "The DNC gave Hillary the nomination" and "Russia is a distraction" - are two of the main themes in the Russia propaganda that flooded social media before the election. The goal was to get otherwise-Democratic voters to stay home or vote third party.
-- ETA

removed spurious speculation
Last edited by DCB on Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nonyuppie
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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:17 pm

I'm not about to endorse everything Polka_Tusk says -- mainly because I usually have real trouble understanding just what s/he is saying -- but here is a link to the "Integrity Initiative" in which British operatives spread disinformation abroad to "counter Russian disinformation" and here is a link to a U.S. military initiative to create fake online personae for U.S. military trolls back in 2011.

I have long assumed that the Russian government tried to prevent Clinton from winning the presidency in 2016, although nothing has been proven. Considering the aggressive nature of U.S. actions on Russia's border, something Clinton pledged to intensify, if I were Russian I would be quite angry if they didn't. That said, any U.S. citizen who did anything illegal to help them should be prosecuted.

Every effort should be made to prevent any other country from meddling in our political process in the future. Some may have less defensive motives than the Russians (like the Israelis who meddle massively to keep the U.S. militarily involved in the Middle East). Overturning Citizens United would be a good start.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:33 pm

DCB wrote:The arguments that P_T makes - "The DNC gave Hillary the nomination" and "Russia is a distraction" - are two of the main themes in the Russia propaganda that flooded social media before the election. The goal was to get otherwise-Democratic voters to stay home or vote third party.

P_T is either duped by russian propaganda, or is a russian troll.


A pretty good case could be made that "The DNC gave Hillary the nomination" considering the revelations about DNC bias against Sanders. "Russia is a distraction" is an opinion that I share.

I suppose you think that I am duped by Russian propaganda. I don't think so. I don't consume Russian media. I don't watch it, I don't listen to it, I don't read it -- not because I imagine it to be any more biased than mainstream U.S. media (sometimes I wonder if that is even possible) but because I want to be able to say in discussions like this that I don't consume Russian media.

I just don't like my government to use my tax dollars to pick fights and stir up trouble overseas in order to justify massive military budgets.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby gozer » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:02 pm

what's good for the goose is good for the gander -- so how about the united states government and stateside oligarchs keeping their pie holes shut about foreign leaders and parties, plebiscites and the like, lest it should advantage one candidate or another? not to mention their hard-on for "regime change" . . . after all, that's what it sounds like people want . . .

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:08 pm

nonyuppie wrote:I suppose you think that I am duped by Russian propaganda. I don't think so. I don't consume Russian media. I don't watch it, I don't listen to it, I don't read it -- not because I imagine it to be any more biased than mainstream U.S. media (sometimes I wonder if that is even possible) but because I want to be able to say in discussions like this that I don't consume Russian media.

You speak as if all propaganda were labeled by the country disseminating it. I don't think that is the case. In my own humble opinion everyone who goes online consumes Russian propaganda every day. And US, and British, and Chinese, and quite a bit from entities that are not countries. And none of them tells us who they are.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:36 pm

Cadfael wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:I suppose you think that I am duped by Russian propaganda. I don't think so. I don't consume Russian media. I don't watch it, I don't listen to it, I don't read it -- not because I imagine it to be any more biased than mainstream U.S. media (sometimes I wonder if that is even possible) but because I want to be able to say in discussions like this that I don't consume Russian media.

You speak as if all propaganda were labeled by the country disseminating it. I don't think that is the case. In my own humble opinion everyone who goes online consumes Russian propaganda every day. And US, and British, and Chinese, and quite a bit from entities that are not countries. And none of them tells us who they are.

The trick is to not get duped.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:53 pm

nonyuppie wrote:
Cadfael wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:I suppose you think that I am duped by Russian propaganda. I don't think so. I don't consume Russian media. I don't watch it, I don't listen to it, I don't read it -- not because I imagine it to be any more biased than mainstream U.S. media (sometimes I wonder if that is even possible) but because I want to be able to say in discussions like this that I don't consume Russian media.

You speak as if all propaganda were labeled by the country disseminating it. I don't think that is the case. In my own humble opinion everyone who goes online consumes Russian propaganda every day. And US, and British, and Chinese, and quite a bit from entities that are not countries. And none of them tells us who they are.

The trick is to not get duped.

If you don't know which is propaganda and which is not, how do you know you haven't been?

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby DCB » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:35 pm

nonyuppie wrote:I suppose you think that I am duped by Russian propaganda. I don't think so. I don't consume Russian media. I don't watch it, I don't listen to it, I don't read it -- not because I imagine it to be any more biased than mainstream U.S. media (sometimes I wonder if that is even possible) but because I want to be able to say in discussions like this that I don't consume Russian media.

If you're on Facebook, or Instagram, or Twitter, etc you almost certainly have consumed Russian propaganda.
nonyuppie wrote:I just don't like my government to use my tax dollars to pick fights and stir up trouble overseas in order to justify massive military budgets.

I don't either.

I think Mueller investigation is important - because I want elections to be fair and legitimate. Not because I want to pick a fight with Russia.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby gargantua » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:00 pm

Occasionally, when it's really obvious, I ask a Facebook troll how the weather is in Moscow, or are the mosquitoes bad there. Hell, might as well have a little fun with it.
By the way, I don't think that the DNC gave the nomination to Hillary because they don't have quite enough power to do that. I also believe that they wanted her to win and did what they could to help her. While I may not like that, it's within their rights. It's their party. It's amazing, and somewhat troubling, that an awful lot of people don't understand what that means.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:38 pm

Cadfael wrote:If you don't know which is propaganda and which is not, how do you know you haven't been?

I don't know for sure but I make every effort not to be duped. I try to spot propaganda and determine what is believable and what isn't. My opinion is as informed as anyone's. It's important to keep in mind that everyone is trying to spin you and you can't believe most of what you read. It helps to be able to verify news from several independent sources.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:46 pm

DCB wrote:If you're on Facebook, or Instagram, or Twitter, etc you almost certainly have consumed Russian propaganda.

I don't use any of those apps. Never have.
DCB wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:I just don't like my government to use my tax dollars to pick fights and stir up trouble overseas in order to justify massive military budgets.

I don't either.

I think Mueller investigation is important - because I want elections to be fair and legitimate. Not because I want to pick a fight with Russia.

In that case we agree.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby nonyuppie » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:10 pm

gargantua wrote:Occasionally, when it's really obvious, I ask a Facebook troll how the weather is in Moscow, or are the mosquitoes bad there. Hell, might as well have a little fun with it.

What's fun about having your patriotism and basic human decency questioned because you disagree with someone? It's happened to me in this forum and elsewhere and I don't like it one damn bit. But you wouldn't be the first to say that I don't have a sense of humor.

gargantua wrote:By the way, I don't think that the DNC gave the nomination to Hillary because they don't have quite enough power to do that. I also believe that they wanted her to win and did what they could to help her. While I may not like that, it's within their rights. It's their party. It's amazing, and somewhat troubling, that an awful lot of people don't understand what that means.


But the Democratic Party claims to the party of the people, not the DNC.

Clinton lost my vote because of what she had already done in government and what she said she would do if elected. It had nothing to do with her campaign strategy or skill as a campaigner. (This has nothing to do with the quote above but it's a real hassle to do it right on a Kindle and it needed to be said.)

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:38 pm

Image

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby gargantua » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:31 pm

nonyuppie wrote:
gargantua wrote:Occasionally, when it's really obvious, I ask a Facebook troll how the weather is in Moscow, or are the mosquitoes bad there. Hell, might as well have a little fun with it.

What's fun about having your patriotism and basic human decency questioned because you disagree with someone? It's happened to me in this forum and elsewhere and I don't like it one damn bit. But you wouldn't be the first to say that I don't have a sense of humor.
gargantua wrote:By the way, I don't think that the DNC gave the nomination to Hillary because they don't have quite enough power to do that. I also believe that they wanted her to win and did what they could to help her. While I may not like that, it's within their rights. It's their party. It's amazing, and somewhat troubling, that an awful lot of people don't understand what that means.


But the Democratic Party claims to the party of the people, not the DNC.

Clinton lost my vote because of what she had already done in government and what she said she would do if elected. It had nothing to do with her campaign strategy or skill as a campaigner. (This has nothing to do with the quote above but it's a real hassle to do it right on a Kindle and it needed to be said.)

I don't know what your comment about the first part of my post has to do with my actual post. It was about different people in a different social media platform. And you didn't see the comments I was responding to, so how on earth would you know if what I said to them was appropriate or not?
You know what? Never mind. I don't care for irrational anger and I don't have to put up with it.
Last edited by gargantua on Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: They admit Russia meddled

Postby Cadfael » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:35 pm

nonyuppie wrote:Clinton lost my vote because of what she had already done in government and what she said she would do if elected. It had nothing to do with her campaign strategy or skill as a campaigner. (This has nothing to do with the quote above but it's a real hassle to do it right on a Kindle and it needed to be said.)

Did you just tell us you voted for Trump?


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