97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

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Cadfael
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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Cadfael » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:05 pm

nonyuppie wrote:
Cadfael wrote:If each and every one of us cut our carbon footprint by half it wouldn't make all that much difference

Who is using the rest (if not each and every one of us)? Don't say "corporations". They produce what we consume.

It IS the corporations. They could produce what we consume and keep the footprint much lower, but that would mean lower profits. So they don't.

Okay it's also our government and and an extremely wasteful, inefficient, crumbling infrastructure, but our government has been in bed with the corporations for so long that we can't change one without changing the other.

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby nonyuppie » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:06 pm

It's not a binary matter/not matter. If our footprint was only 2X that of the rest of the world immigration would be much less of an issue. If the undeveloped world could avoid some of the poor choices we made, they could live better in their footprints.

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby pjbogart » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:28 pm

Cadfael wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:
Cadfael wrote:If each and every one of us cut our carbon footprint by half it wouldn't make all that much difference

Who is using the rest (if not each and every one of us)? Don't say "corporations". They produce what we consume.

It IS the corporations. They could produce what we consume and keep the footprint much lower, but that would mean lower profits. So they don't.

Okay it's also our government and and an extremely wasteful, inefficient, crumbling infrastructure, but our government has been in bed with the corporations for so long that we can't change one without changing the other.


I'm torn on this one. Isn't there some shared responsibility between consumers and producers? Ned would probably have you burning your old tires in your backyard just to piss off your liberal neighbors, but isn't there something in the middle where we bear a certain amount of responsibility for our choices? I own two cars, despite being a single dude. A Prius for the gas mileage and a Suburu for the snow. But couldn't I just put up with the snow in my Prius to reduce my footprint? Granted, I wouldn't be the ultimate latte slurping liberal who owns two of the most commie-socialist cars on the market, but hurricanes would clearly be less severe if I stuck to the Prius. Right?

I try to be a good boy. I try to do what's best for the economy and the environment, but I can't really blame corporate America for producing what I'm willing to buy. Government could certainly encourage me to drive my Prius in the winter by making gasoline $8/gallon, but the pendulum is swinging and gas prices affect the economy... not just my own, but everyone's.

Do we pass laws that make us richer or do we pass laws that help future generations? The answer seems obvious, but if you pass THOSE laws you lose elections. And you can't really ask consumers and government to get on the same page. Consumers will do whatever is cheapest, including burning tires in their backyard. And corporations will do whatever consumers want, including burning tires in their backyard.

So we're at an impasse. Consumers do whatever is cheapest, regardless of deeper moral considerations, and corporations do whatever sells, regardless of deeper moral considerations. So we share the blame. Don't we?

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby snoqueen » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:07 am

After seeing the images from Mexico Beach FL and earlier ones from Hurricane Florence, many people would agree our government, corporations, and individuals all need to put more resources toward disaster relief and climate change mitigation. If the Democrats presented it right, now might be the time to move a few indepentents and even a few marginal Republicans on board.

Corporations: lower-carbon and lower-waste practices and priorities. The government: not only FEMA, but many other environmental programs and regulations, right down to wetland protection way up here in WI. Individuals: all the little stuff, from less meat consumption and packaging waste up to energy efficiency in any form you can afford and manage.

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby DCB » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:46 am

"Corporations" don't make decisions based on goodness. They only respond to consumer demand and government regulations. When there was a market for more fuel-efficient cars, they responded. When governments passed stricter fuel economy laws, they responded.

We need national and indeed international rules and regulations to tax carbon on the one hand and invest in green technology on the other hand. Also for informed individuals to make informed choices.

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby IU2Bmanoletters » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:43 pm

"I Don't Know That It's Man-Made,' Trump Says of Climate Change. It Is."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/clim ... check.html

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Madsci » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:08 pm

Cadfael wrote:
Madsci wrote:We all need to reduce our carbon footprint. What can the average person do?...
I will continue to try to live sustainable lifestyle until I die and have a tree planted over me.

We've been over this before. If each and every one of us cut our carbon footprint by half it wouldn't make all that much difference. We have to turn our society around and stop using so much carbon for all the things we use without thinking. That is where our energy should be going, not into finding ways to make a minuscule difference.

Speaking of tractors, what have you been hearing about the new tractors being repairable only by the dealer because of software and instruments being only available to them? I've been seeing stories of technically and mechanically capable farmers who can't repair their own gazillion dollar equipment because John Deer has rigged them all to be unrepairable by anyone who doesn't have the code or the diagnostic gear. So they have to wait till the company comes out to fix it and then pay dealers prices for parts they used to get for half the cost. Izzat how it is?

Thanks for man-splaining this to me since I am just a farmer. Only I have 30 years of doing scientific research at UW. What's your credentials?
It seems to me that most consumer products are no longer easy to repair.

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Madsci » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:09 pm

Weather Bob wrote:I agree with Cadfael. If the future of the Earth's climate depended on convincing people to make heroic individual efforts to reduce their personal carbon footprint, we'd all be doomed. Actual progress will depend on collectively nudging everything -- manufacturing, transport, etc. -- into more efficient, lower-carbon pathways. Do what you choose to, Madsci, in your own life, but keep in mind that ultimately it's what happens on the wholesale level that matters.

Re: tractors and "right to repair":
John Deere Just Swindled Farmers Out of Their Right to Repair
"Right to Repair"

See what how I replied to Cad above.

Cadfael
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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Cadfael » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:17 pm

Madsci wrote:Thanks for man-splaining this to me since I am just a farmer. Only I have 30 years of doing scientific research at UW. What's your credentials?
It seems to me that most consumer products are no longer easy to repair.

Sorry.

My credentials are that I read things that people with credentials write, and they say that the people in this country with the absolute lowest personal carbon footprint are twice as high as the global average.

Most consumer products are indeed no longer easy to repair, but I don't put John Deer tractors in the class of "most consumer products." I think if you have to wait to harvest your crop till JD sends out a tech to fix your gear, you're probably not as well off as someone who can fix it herself.

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Madsci » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:09 am

No problem.
I can handle snark but I don't need to reminded that I just a small cog in the wheel.
Now you know one of the reasons that I don't own a tractor - especially a Deere. And I was looking for one that is hybrid or electronic - no luck in the country.

Doing the right thing to save this planet will not be easy. But I rather do what I can to try to reduce my carbon footprint than to do nothing at all. I just happen to be a positive forward thinker.

And reading is good.

Cadfael
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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Cadfael » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:25 pm

Melting glacier in China draws tourists, climate worries
The government is limiting tourists who come to take selfies in front of one of the world's fastest melting glaciers to ten thousand people a day.
Millions of people each year are drawn to Baishui’s frosty beauty on the southeastern edge of the Third Pole __ a region in Central Asia with the world’s third-largest store of ice after Antarctica and Greenland that’s roughly the size of Texas and New Mexico combined.

Third Pole glaciers are vital to billions of people from Vietnam to Afghanistan. Asia’s 10 largest rivers __ including the Yangtze, Yellow, Mekong, and Ganges __ are fed by seasonal melting.

“You’re talking about one of the world’s largest freshwater sources,” said Ashley Johnson, energy program manager at the National Bureau of Asian Research, an American think tank. “Depending on how it melts, a lot of the freshwater will be leaving the region for the ocean, which will have severe impacts on water and food security.”

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby JoeT » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:27 pm


From the article:
Earth is today 1 degree Centigrade (1.8 Fahrenheit) hotter than pre-industrial levels because of climate change __ enough to melt 28 to 44 percent of glaciers worldwide, according to a new report by the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

For all the flak the IPCC gets, there are a number of scientists who think it is too conservative. One of them is Richard Alley who thinks that not enough attention is paid to the uncertainties in estimates of sea level rise due to melting glaciers --- or, in other words --- how bad things could REALLY get. There was a mediocre article that recently appeared in Rolling Stone about Alley,What’s Another Way to Say ‘We’re Fucked’?.

Better than the article is listening to Richard Alley explain it instead. I get a kick out of his exuberant nerdiness --- his talks are very accessible even to those without a science background. It'll only take 1/2 hour of your life.
National Climate Seminar: Sea Level Rise with Richard Alley, 9/19/18, Bard Center for Environmental Policy

Cadfael
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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Cadfael » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:27 pm

Hey, we're starting to see reports on where the water wars are most likely to start.
I've only scanned through it a little but I think I'm about to be pulled away from this box for the evening so I'll just leave this here. I think they're talking about sometime around 2050 through 2100.
Image

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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:44 am


Cadfael
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Re: 97% Scientist Consensus: global warming is man-made

Postby Cadfael » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:02 am

Smart move.
The suit does not charge Exxon with playing a role in creating climate change, though the burning of fossil fuels is a major contributor to human-driven warming. Rather, it is a fairly straightforward shareholder fraud suit, the kind that New York attorneys general have long brought and successfully prosecuted under state law.

There's plenty of time to charge them for fucking up the climate after they pay for lying to the shareholders. Winning the case would legitimize climate change and pave the way for governments to at least admit it exists and begin mitigation.


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