Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

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jonnygothispen
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:01 pm

Cadfael wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:
gargantua wrote: I agree with this. Too bad that it doesn't matter the least little bit.


It's a nice counter to Scalia's "prefatory clause" nonsense, and it's nice to have it laid out so plainly.

If you read the comments you can find the mechanisms they've already got in place to completely discount every point made in the article.

I do not believe the country contains any persons who have not yet made a decision about how this amendment should be construed. The decision won't be made through debate. It will have to be votes.


It'll happen from a combination of debate, eliminating election fraud, and a consensus of popular opinion that helps replace the NRA's paid lackeys in Congress.

I still debate in comments sections once in awhile, and even ran into D-man on one thread. I stick to the main point that the inalienable right to life is the only reason to allow arms, and that the 2nd amendment could only be intended to protect life. So new and more effective regulations are actually pro-2nd amendment, which means I can then ask them why they're against the 2nd amendment... when the timing is right.

Then I watch them sit and try to spin their way out of their idea that a gun has more rights than the right to life it's supposed to protect.

I like to use their "inanimate object" idea that guns don't kill people to say, "You're right! That's why there's no such thing as gun control-it's controlling dangerous people from having guns!" And there's no such thing as gun rights-the only right is, again, the inalienable right to life the gun is supposed to protect.

Asking them why they want criminals to have easy access to guns is another good one. And why does it bother you if it's harder for criminals to have guns. They'll go on about "2,300 laws regulating guns aren't working (enforcement issue), and you want more?" Tell them that they're admitting the laws on the books aren't working, and it's because they're too hard to enforce, which means we need new laws to put the burden on the seller, and not expect felons to follow the laws like it is now.

"Fightin' tyranny!" Please explain why Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15 & 16 gives federal congress the power to deploy the state militias of the 2nd amendment to "suppress insurrections? Why would our government of rich landowners want armed rednecks overthrowing their new government and stealing their land like Washington became obsessed with preventing after the Shay's Rebellion?

When great pro-gun quotes from founding fathers pop up, several taken completely out of context... Great opinions! I agree, but none of those ideas were involved in the discussion of the 2nd amendment as it was written, or in the actual words of the 2nd when they decided to ensure the existence of armed militias to "suppress insurrections," like the Constitution actually says.

I also try to remember that it isn't so much the person arguing with me who I'm talking too, because most are immovable, and usually resort to diversion. But in my mind I imagine that people who are more pliable also skim through, and that a few ideas might catch on to whatever extent. Creating a level of logic that requires even minor acceptance of what regulations are really doing is a start.

Eliminating corporate money from campaigns, and reinstating the fairness doctrine would be the most effective ways to fix everything in politics today. Barring that, it comes from a consensus on issues, which comes from the exchange of ideas. Or as Al Wanless used to say, "We were just trading knowledge..." before the fight began.

If you're a glutton for punishment, anyway.

jonnygothispen
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 am

"If we don’t keep shouting PEACE, there could be war. Peace is big. War is big business. They like war because it keeps them fat and happy. I’m anti-war, so they’re trying to keep me out of the USA. But I’ll get in because they’ll have to own up in public that they’re against peace. We’re all responsible for war. We all must do something, no matter what – by growing our hair long, standing on one leg, talking to the press, having Bed-Ins – to change the attitudes. The people must be made aware that it’s up to them."

"I want to see the plan. Count me out if it is for violence. Don’t expect me to be on the barricades unless it is with flowers. The reason they don’t dig it or understand it is because they’re so conditioned to believe that it’s inevitable, and man is a violent animal that always kills things, and we will always have it like that."

us old stogies know who...

Henry Vilas
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 am

Hint, said by one of the few non-US citizens on a US stamp.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gargantua » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:24 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Hint, said by one of the few non-US citizens on a US stamp.

I knew who it was by the 5th sentence. Feel bad that it took me that long.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gozer » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:07 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:
Cadfael wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:
It's a nice counter to Scalia's "prefatory clause" nonsense, and it's nice to have it laid out so plainly.

If you read the comments you can find the mechanisms they've already got in place to completely discount every point made in the article.

I do not believe the country contains any persons who have not yet made a decision about how this amendment should be construed. The decision won't be made through debate. It will have to be votes.


It'll happen from a combination of debate, eliminating election fraud, and a consensus of popular opinion that helps replace the NRA's paid lackeys in Congress.

I still debate in comments sections once in awhile, and even ran into D-man on one thread. I stick to the main point that the inalienable right to life is the only reason to allow arms, and that the 2nd amendment could only be intended to protect life. So new and more effective regulations are actually pro-2nd amendment, which means I can then ask them why they're against the 2nd amendment... when the timing is right.
.
.
.


there we go -- that hits the nail on the head . . .on top of that automobiles were quite important in the making of the current state of affairs, and when was the last time anyone heard of opposition to having to take a test and maintain the vehicle at certain levels to be able to operate it on public roads? actually one could ask the same thing about locomotives too . . .

or how about the compulsory training for the folks who keep our heating, ventilation & air conditioning working right? most of the country would be uninhabitable without them --

if they can invent for trivial cost an integral biometric lock which can survive prolonged immersion in salt water, 500 kpa of overpressure, brief exposure to fire, and the electromagnetic pulse from a 50 mt nuke going off 150 km up and a retrofit version for other guns and both of which can be bypassed in an emergency for 30 seconds at a time and/or programmed with several family members or what have u, the debate would be closer to the end than the beginning, perhaps?

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:52 am

The first draft of the 2nd further clarifies that it was all about military service...

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.p ... _say_w.amp

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:21 am

gozer wrote:... automobiles were quite important in the making of the current state of affairs, and when was the last time anyone heard of opposition to having to take a test and maintain the vehicle at certain levels to be able to operate it on public roads?
...


I'm surprised that there aren't more accidents due to lack of maintenance and often that because of poverty. Like broken tie-rod ends & ball joints, worn out bearings & bushings.

I had a severe rattle in my Saab 900. The mechanic told me it was a bad rubber bushing on the shock absorber, which would just be annoying, not dangerous. 2 months later, the ball joint broke causing the wheel to slide flat underneath the car. Luckily, it skidded into a 2 space parking spot almost as if I parked it there. If that happened in the highway...

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gargantua » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:40 pm

I saw a wheel come flying off an SUV on a Milwaukee freeway a few years ago. Flew over my car and bounded merrily along....somewhere. If I only had a gun, I could have plugged that sucker.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:09 pm

gargantua wrote:I saw a wheel come flying off an SUV on a Milwaukee freeway a few years ago. Flew over my car and bounded merrily along....somewhere. If I only had a gun, I could have plugged that sucker.


I feel your pain. Runaway tires kill more people than guns, slippery shower stalls and Ford Pintos...

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gozer » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:22 am

gargantua wrote:I saw a wheel come flying off an SUV on a Milwaukee freeway a few years ago. Flew over my car and bounded merrily along....somewhere. If I only had a gun, I could have plugged that sucker.


was this on the west edge of the mixmaster over there? i have seen something similar happen there three times over the years and figure there must be some wheel-unscrewing ghost haunting the mixmaster . . . exploding tyres on 18-wheelers are another hazard . . .

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gozer » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 am

jonnygothispen wrote:
gozer wrote:... automobiles were quite important in the making of the current state of affairs, and when was the last time anyone heard of opposition to having to take a test and maintain the vehicle at certain levels to be able to operate it on public roads?
...


I'm surprised that there aren't more accidents due to lack of maintenance and often that because of poverty. Like broken tie-rod ends & ball joints, worn out bearings & bushings.

I had a severe rattle in my Saab 900. The mechanic told me it was a bad rubber bushing on the shock absorber, which would just be annoying, not dangerous. 2 months later, the ball joint broke causing the wheel to slide flat underneath the car. Luckily, it skidded into a 2 space parking spot almost as if I parked it there. If that happened in the highway...


there was one time when the automobile in which i was riding had essentially the entire drive train disintegrate south of madison on highway 14 and the driver was able to coast all the way home -- onto the belt line highway, off at south whitney way and down into the neighbourhood whilst miraculously avoiding red lights. the vehicle had been well-maintained and all . . . there had been an jag of -40°c/f or colder weather about a month previous, but i do not think that could have done it . . .

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:35 am

gozer wrote:[
there was one time when the automobile in which i was riding had essentially the entire drive train disintegrate south of madison on highway 14 and the driver was able to coast all the way home -- onto the belt line highway, off at south whitney way and down into the neighbourhood whilst miraculously avoiding red lights. the vehicle had been well-maintained and all . . . there had been an jag of -40°c/f or colder weather about a month previous, but i do not think that could have done it . . .


Probably a broken CV-axle...

Coasting to safety is good.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:57 pm

"How Often Do People Use Guns In Self-Defense?"

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/60214382 ... lf-defense

The latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.

David Hemenway, who led the Harvard research, argues that the risks of owning a gun outweigh the benefits of having one in the rare case where you might need to defend yourself.

"The average person ... has basically no chance in their lifetime ever to use a gun in self-defense,"...

In fact... the percentage of people who (say) they used a gun in self-defense is similar to the percentage of Americans who said they were abducted by aliens... "a more reasonable estimate" of self-defense gun uses equals about 100,000 annually, according to the NCVS data.

http://home.uchicago.edu/ludwigj/papers ... y_2007.pdf

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:48 pm

How's this for a self-defense claim?

Acosta told police he saw an unknown man, Reyes, coming through the front door who didn't say anything. Acosta claimed he thought the man was trying to break into his house through the front door so he pushed him back out of the doorway and started shooting him with his rifle.

Reyes was unarmed and did not threaten or attack Acosta, according to the complaint.

Acosta told police he owns two guns: an AK rifle and an AR rifle that he bought at a gun shop near Lake Geneva for $500 each. He said he does not remember what he did with his rifle after he shot Reyes, according to the complaint.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Cadfael » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:45 pm

A Trauma Surgeon Who Survived Gun Violence Is Taking On The NRA
...Sakran knows the pain of gun violence because he is a survivor of it; when he was 17, he took a bullet to the throat after a high school football game.

Maybe that's why he felt the need to do something when the NRA tweeted on Nov. 7, "Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors to stay in their lane," in response to the American College of Physicians' position paper on reducing firearm injuries and deaths.

"My first reaction was kind of incensed," Sakran says of the NRA's tweet. Then, he sprang into action, creating the Twitter account @ThisIsOurLane and encouraging other medical professionals to share their experiences treating victims of gun violence.

Joseph Sakran is director of emergency general surgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore.

Behind closed doors, I think it is likely that the NRA administration is having discussions about unintended consequences and putting a tighter control mechanism on what gets posted to their social media feeds.
(For those who may have noticed, yes I first posted this to the 97 percent thread for some reason. I caught it in time to paste it in here and remove the other one.)


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