Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

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jonnygothispen
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:12 pm

From the link...

“Their project being complete, the team disbanded.”

“Stern discipline being called for, the offending student was expelled.”

In both cases, the initial dependent clause is not superfluous to the meaning of the entire sentence: it is integral. The team disbanded because the project was complete; the student was expelled because his offense called for stern discipline. This causal relationship cannot be ignored. Reading the Second Amendment as “A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed,” clearly shows the same causal relationship as the example sentences; in this case, that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed because it is essential to maintaining a well-regulated militia."


http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/201 ... hts/33796/

The “absolute” clause construction of the Second amendment was quite common at the time, and appears in many state constitutions and framing documents. The primary purpose in these constructions is to give the conditions under which the rest of the sentence is true or valid. As a prime example of the ablative absolute, the first clause of the Second Amendment may stand grammatically free, but serves semantically to modify or clarify the meaning of the rest of the sentence. The Framers were clearly familiar with the ablative absolute and used it not as rhetorical fluff or flourish, but as a way of clarifying intent, in this case clarifying that the right to bear arms is granted in the context and within the scope of establishing a militia. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gargantua » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:50 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:From the link...

“Their project being complete, the team disbanded.”

“Stern discipline being called for, the offending student was expelled.”

In both cases, the initial dependent clause is not superfluous to the meaning of the entire sentence: it is integral. The team disbanded because the project was complete; the student was expelled because his offense called for stern discipline. This causal relationship cannot be ignored. Reading the Second Amendment as “A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed,” clearly shows the same causal relationship as the example sentences; in this case, that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed because it is essential to maintaining a well-regulated militia."


http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/201 ... hts/33796/

The “absolute” clause construction of the Second amendment was quite common at the time, and appears in many state constitutions and framing documents. The primary purpose in these constructions is to give the conditions under which the rest of the sentence is true or valid. As a prime example of the ablative absolute, the first clause of the Second Amendment may stand grammatically free, but serves semantically to modify or clarify the meaning of the rest of the sentence. The Framers were clearly familiar with the ablative absolute and used it not as rhetorical fluff or flourish, but as a way of clarifying intent, in this case clarifying that the right to bear arms is granted in the context and within the scope of establishing a militia. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree with this. Too bad that it doesn't matter the least little bit.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:33 pm

gargantua wrote: I agree with this. Too bad that it doesn't matter the least little bit.


It's a nice counter to Scalia's "prefatory clause" nonsense, and it's nice to have it laid out so plainly.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:46 am

Wisconsin company giving every employee a handgun for Christmas

Here is someone who thinks it would be great if everybody had a gun.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Cadfael » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 am

jonnygothispen wrote:
gargantua wrote: I agree with this. Too bad that it doesn't matter the least little bit.


It's a nice counter to Scalia's "prefatory clause" nonsense, and it's nice to have it laid out so plainly.

If you read the comments you can find the mechanisms they've already got in place to completely discount every point made in the article.

I do not believe the country contains any persons who have not yet made a decision about how this amendment should be construed. The decision won't be made through debate. It will have to be votes.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:11 pm

Supreme Court votes or constitutional amendment votes?

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Cadfael » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:46 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Supreme Court votes or constitutional amendment votes?

Legislator votes. We've got to vote for people with brains in their heads. We don't need to change the amendment, we've already limited free speech without changing the constitution. We could put sane regulations in place if the gun lobby wasn't so well entrenched.

But yes, if you're implying the SC could easily kill any gun control effort, they sure could.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:56 pm

Actually, we expanded free speech without changing the constitution. Citizens United expanded personhood to corporations and to political and religious advocacy groups.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Cadfael » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:14 pm

So, we don't need a constitutional amendment. We just need government.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:38 pm

The law (including the Constitution) is what judges say it is. We need different people on the Supreme Court.

Right now, I'm not too optimistic about that.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gargantua » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:43 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The law (including the Constitution) is what judges say it is. We need different people on the Supreme Court.

Right now, I'm not too optimistic about that.

The only ones we'll likely see in our lifetimes will be as bad or worse than Kavanaugh. In fact, I believe that would be the case if I happened to be 20 years younger.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gozer » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:42 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Wisconsin company giving every employee a handgun for Christmas

Here is someone who thinks it would be great if everybody had a gun.


if they make glassware then they should have chosen bongs, other glass water pipes, glass syringes, and dmt pipes for stocking stuffers instead. maybe a glass dildo . . .

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gargantua » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:20 pm

gozer wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Wisconsin company giving every employee a handgun for Christmas

Here is someone who thinks it would be great if everybody had a gun.


if they make glassware then they should have chosen bongs, other glass water pipes, glass syringes, and dmt pipes for stocking stuffers instead. maybe a glass dildo . . .

The way they did it may make more long term business sense. Think of all the glass windows and windshields that bullets shatter. They'll clean up!

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gozer » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:00 pm

gargantua wrote:
gozer wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Wisconsin company giving every employee a handgun for Christmas

Here is someone who thinks it would be great if everybody had a gun.


if they make glassware then they should have chosen bongs, other glass water pipes, glass syringes, and dmt pipes for stocking stuffers instead. maybe a glass dildo . . .

The way they did it may make more long term business sense. Think of all the glass windows and windshields that bullets shatter. They'll clean up!


the far side ­, i think 14. december 1989:
Image

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby gozer » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:53 pm

then there is 3. december 1993's

Image

i'd change it to wouldn't it be great if everybody had a mixing console, but that would just be pointless and immature . . .


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