If you grab my junk...

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ouroborus4
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If you grab my junk...

Postby ouroborus4 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:39 pm

I'll have you arrested!

That seems to be an interesting quote that's been flying around cyberspace. I'm surprised nobody has posted on it.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/tsa-investigating-passenger/

I find this interesting as it brings up several issues. Do you feel the new scanners which expose passengers to low amounts of x-ray radiation are necessary precaution for airport securtiy? Are they safe (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/11/17/whats-the-real-radiation-risk-of-the-tsas-full-body-x-ray-scans/)?

Should passengers be allowed to opt out of the scan? If so, is the sexual groping that follows appropriate? Should a passenger be allowed to opt out of that procedure like the man in question has? Since he did not board his flight is it appropriate that he be criminally investigated?

Is this technology necessary for small airports like the dane county regional airport? http://host.madison.com/wsj/business/article_0f912348-f289-11df-8503-001cc4c002e0.html

I'd be curious to read your opinions on the matter. I think the scanners are going too far in the name of security. While extra precautions should be made considering the new age of threats that we are encountering, less obtrusive measures could be taken such as more bomb sniffing dogs or infrared camera's to detect a nervous passenger. Beyond the obtrusiveness of the scanners, I question whether any exposure to x-rays is justifiable. While I know its not the intent, it reminds me sterilization procdures used by the Nazi's in WWII by having registrants stand at a counter while a hidden x-ray machine blasted their reproductive organs.

I'm conflicted as to whether the man in the article should be punished. I respect what he did, but he knowingly broke the law. I'd hate to see this man's life ruined because he refused to be groped. thoughts?

ilikebeans
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:44 pm

Everyone sees a negative here. I see the free hand of the market fondling up a new alternative to the beleaguered Rising Sun massage parlor.

Glass half-full!

Galoot
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby Galoot » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:59 pm

"By buying your ticket you give up a lot of rights"? That's almost completely bullshit.

The guy is right--what they do with the "enhanced pat-down" would be considered sexual assault in any other situation.

One guy had some explosives in his underwear, so now every airline passenger has to either be hit with x-rays that give an image of him/her naked to some stranger, or have one's gonads fondled by another stranger!?

Fuck 'em. The FUD approach just isn't going to work for a lot of Americans anymore.

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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby jhain » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:15 pm

ouroborus4 wrote:I'm conflicted as to whether the man in the article should be punished. I respect what he did, but he knowingly broke the law. I'd hate to see this man's life ruined because he refused to be groped. thoughts?


What law did he knowingly break?

ouroborus4
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby ouroborus4 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:20 pm

jhain wrote:
ouroborus4 wrote:I'm conflicted as to whether the man in the article should be punished. I respect what he did, but he knowingly broke the law. I'd hate to see this man's life ruined because he refused to be groped. thoughts?


What law did he knowingly break?



from the article:
What he’s done, he’s violated federal law and federal regulations which states once you enter and start the process you have to complete it,” TSA’s San Diego security director told the Fox 5 News.


I'm not a lawyer, so i'm not familiar with the specific law, but apparently its a federal offense.

jhain
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby jhain » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:29 pm

ouroborus4 wrote:
jhain wrote:
ouroborus4 wrote:I'm conflicted as to whether the man in the article should be punished. I respect what he did, but he knowingly broke the law. I'd hate to see this man's life ruined because he refused to be groped. thoughts?


What law did he knowingly break?



from the article:
What he’s done, he’s violated federal law and federal regulations which states once you enter and start the process you have to complete it,” TSA’s San Diego security director told the Fox 5 News.
I'm not a lawyer, so i'm not familiar with the specific law, but apparently its a federal offense.


According to his blog, he was not aware of this law and was told by the TSA agents supervisor's supervisor that if he didn't submit to the grope he would have to leave. TSA agents and local police escorted him to the ticket counter to get his ticket refunded and then sent him on his way. It would seem to me that if he actually broke this law, it is the TSA's fault for telling him to leave.


ouroborus4
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby ouroborus4 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:53 pm

jhain wrote:According to his blog, he was not aware of this law and was told by the TSA agents supervisor's supervisor that if he didn't submit to the grope he would have to leave. TSA agents and local police escorted him to the ticket counter to get his ticket refunded and then sent him on his way. It would seem to me that if he actually broke this law, it is the TSA's fault for telling him to leave.



That's how I read it too, but the article also mentions that he was warned before leaving that he could be prosecuted to which he replied, "so sue me". so depending on who you ask, its arguable that he knew he was breaking a law. I'm glad to see that many people are willing to contribute to his legal defense if it does go to court. Furthermore I agree that we should lobby our lawmakers to change the law to something more sensible!

Galoot wrote:One guy had some explosives in his underwear, so now every airline passenger has to either be hit with x-rays that give an image of him/her naked to some stranger, or have one's gonads fondled by another stranger!?

Fuck 'em. The FUD approach just isn't going to work for a lot of Americans anymore.


beyond the nude image risk, I find the discover article to be interesting in that even if the scanners are considered to be 99.99% safe, they still pose a threat to the population at large when you consider the sheer volume of people who will be exposed to that radiation. A .01% risk for millions of airline passengers will leave a significant amount of people with cellular damage even though the risk to any individual is small. Frequent travellers are obviously at a greater risk and the long term effects are not known.

ilikebeans
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:03 pm

What he’s done, he’s violated federal law and federal regulations which states once you enter and start the process you have to complete it,” TSA’s San Diego security director told the Fox 5 News.

So, let's say you've been ignoring the news for the past couple of weeks, and are unaware of the options you'll be presented with if you enter the screening process.

How can it be legal to punish you for choosing c) none of the above, and I won't fly, when presented with a) nude photos taken of you and viewed by strangers, and b) getting your groin groped?

Both of those options seem illegal on the face of it. Bet the law wouldn't hold up in court, and we'll likely see it tested soon.

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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby jhain » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:25 pm

ouroborus4 wrote:
jhain wrote:According to his blog, he was not aware of this law and was told by the TSA agents supervisor's supervisor that if he didn't submit to the grope he would have to leave. TSA agents and local police escorted him to the ticket counter to get his ticket refunded and then sent him on his way. It would seem to me that if he actually broke this law, it is the TSA's fault for telling him to leave.



That's how I read it too, but the article also mentions that he was warned before leaving that he could be prosecuted to which he replied, "so sue me". so depending on who you ask, its arguable that he knew he was breaking a law. I'm glad to see that many people are willing to contribute to his legal defense if it does go to court. Furthermore I agree that we should lobby our lawmakers to change the law to something more sensible!


He was warned before leaving the airport but that was after he was told to leave the screening area. If you listen to the audio of his videos from the incident, this becomes clear.

http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/ ... tween.html

ilikebeans
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:51 pm

Image

gargantua
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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby gargantua » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:58 pm

I don't agree with it, but the rationale for the law is to prevent potential terrorists from testing security and then leaving to try something else on another occasion until they find something that works.

I'll be looking for alternatives to flying whenever possible. Man, sure would be nice if we had some high speed rail alternative huh?

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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby bmasel » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:30 am

ouroborus4 wrote:from the article:
What he’s done, he’s violated federal law and federal regulations which states once you enter and start the process you have to complete it,” TSA’s San Diego security director told the Fox 5 News.


I'm not a lawyer, so i'm not familiar with the specific law, but apparently its a federal offense.


Wrong.

The statute forbids entering the 'sanitized area" without going through screening. He was in the screening area, which precedes the sanitized area.

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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby c02 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:00 am

For starters it comes as no surprise that a member of the war/fear-profiteering regime is behind the push for these machines. Gee, whoda' thunk it? :roll:

Any one care to wager a guess as to how long it will be before taxpayers get the double whammy of not only paying for the dog and pony machines; but footing the bill for the Federal Government to fight the first lawsuit brought forth by a TSA employee for mental distress? It's going to take just one guy hopped up on Cialis/Levitra/Viagra to create an extremely uncomfortable moment for some TSA agent ready to crack and scream 'hostile workplace environment.'

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Re: If you grab my junk...

Postby snoqueen » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:00 am

The first thing I thought when I read the story about the guy refusing the intrusive search was "good for him." The second thing I thought was "oh those poor screening employees."

I sure wouldn't like it if someone added this to my job description. There has to be a better way to manage flight security. Here's what I came up with:

They should issue each passenger a clean bathrobe, bundle up their clothes and put them in with other freight, and return the clothes at the end of the flight. To prevent people from concealing weapons under their bathrobes, they could weigh each passenger dressed, weigh their clothing bundle, weigh the bathrobes, weigh them wearing their bathrobes, and do the math. You'd have to find some simple, fair way of being sure the passengers actually took off EVERYTHING so the obvious way to handle that is have them take a shower before putting their bathrobes on. A clean passenger is a safe passenger.

Sounds silly but so is the feel-them-up system. A possible improvement would be allowing the passengers to bring their own bathrobes, which could be inspected prior to the clothes-change.

And terrorists in bathrobes (and slippers -- don't forget slippers) just doesn't look, well, terroristic. Could be a deterrent right there.
Last edited by snoqueen on Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.


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