How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?
Ducatista
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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby Ducatista » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:18 pm

Truthseeker wrote:Surely, this is not what Irwin and Robert Goodman intended.

FORSOOTH!

snoqueen
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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby snoqueen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:29 pm

gargantua wrote:No. The neighbors are being unreasonable NIMBYs. You're probably one of them. Edgewood is an asset to the community, and the stadium will not have anything like the impact that overwrought opponents imagine.


My former neighbors over by Breese Stevens Field say they like the additional activity the improvements to the field and stadium have brought. Even when I lived over there, the field had bright tall lights and we enjoyed the nighttime effect when they were turned on. A sports field in a small close neighborhood is not automatically a disaster. It's a change, but not necessarily a change for the worse.

However, is building a big costly football field a sensible move in 2019? Will collegiate football even exist in ten years, now that the danger of concussions and other brain injury is getting more and more apparent? Would you allow (or encourage) your kid to play football, in high school or college? If football sooner or later dies out, can this field be adapted to soccer or other field sports that are at least marginally safer?

If the idea is to build a big new stadium so they HAVE to continue the sport in order to pay it off... well, that's not the way to run a college.

gargantua
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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby gargantua » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:25 pm

snoqueen wrote:
gargantua wrote:No. The neighbors are being unreasonable NIMBYs. You're probably one of them. Edgewood is an asset to the community, and the stadium will not have anything like the impact that overwrought opponents imagine.


My former neighbors over by Breese Stevens Field say they like the additional activity the improvements to the field and stadium have brought. Even when I lived over there, the field had bright tall lights and we enjoyed the nighttime effect when they were turned on. A sports field in a small close neighborhood is not automatically a disaster. It's a change, but not necessarily a change for the worse.

However, is building a big costly football field a sensible move in 2019? Will collegiate football even exist in ten years, now that the danger of concussions and other brain injury is getting more and more apparent? Would you allow (or encourage) your kid to play football, in high school or college? If football sooner or later dies out, can this field be adapted to soccer or other field sports that are at least marginally safer?

If the idea is to build a big new stadium so they HAVE to continue the sport in order to pay it off... well, that's not the way to run a college.

Sno, the stadium is for the high school. Your point about the future of football is certainly valid, but only a maximum of eight football games a year is proposed. It would also be used for other sports and events like soccer, most of which wouldn't even be conducted after dark.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby david cohen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:43 pm

It's not Edgewood College, it's Edgewood High School. Believe me, the administration of Edgewood College are a dishonest bunch of hacks. The folks who run the high school have been playing the bait and switch game with the neighborhood, but now, with all the publicity, they are having to come clean about their real intentions.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby Igor » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:34 pm

david cohen wrote:It's not Edgewood College, it's Edgewood High School. Believe me, the administration of Edgewood College are a dishonest bunch of hacks. The folks who run the high school have been playing the bait and switch game with the neighborhood, but now, with all the publicity, they are having to come clean about their real intentions.


That may be true. What is also undoubtedly true is that the neighborhood has unreasonable expectations over what control they should have over how others use their property. Everything I have read reads like a"death of a thousand cuts" strategy. I've seen people online ask for an environmental impact statement, because the lights could impact bird populations by the lake. You know - the lake that has a zoo, several busy streets, a parking ramp, and hospital with helipad right by it.

gargantua
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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby gargantua » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:59 pm

david cohen wrote:It's not Edgewood College, it's Edgewood High School. Believe me, the administration of Edgewood College are a dishonest bunch of hacks. The folks who run the high school have been playing the bait and switch game with the neighborhood, but now, with all the publicity, they are having to come clean about their real intentions.

I would ask you to prove that Edgewood has been playing bait and switch. The agreement they signed has a provision for amendment. This is an amendment. So, where's the beef?

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:24 am

... the stadium is for the high school. Your point about the future of football is certainly valid, but only a maximum of eight football games a year is proposed. It would also be used for other sports and events like soccer, most of which wouldn't even be conducted after dark.


Ok, thanks for explaining. I am happy to know the proposed stadium is for other sports in addition to football, because I don't see a big future for high school (or college) football in the long run. Would Edgewood College have access in addition to Edgewood High School, regardless of which sport were talking about?

I find it hard to believe that the high school would get a stadium and the college would be forbidden to use it.

The point that the stadium would host football only a few days a year weakens the persuasiveness of Edgewood's case. If the facility is to be used so seldom, why is it a good use of the school's resources? They already have a field, and a nice-looking, convenient one. Of course, they can do what they want with their money -- it's a private institution. But they're hardly facing disaster if they just keep using the field they've already got.

While having an event facility nearby isn't doom for a residential neighborhood, there's also a point to be made in terms of who was there first. People bought their houses when Edgewood had a sports field, not a stadium. They innocently assumed Edgewood was a fairly stable, positive neighbor.

Now Edgewood is planning a big change. We don't know how property values will be affected, but we can be pretty sure game days/nights will be much different than before. If you think about it, this is why we have zoning ordinances: so people who buy there know what to expect, and what is less likely. The same principle applies to the Edgewood area: the people bought houses expecting a certain stability, and it's gone. Ordinances aren't protecting them, and their assumptions turn out to be ungrounded. I don't blame them for fighting back.

In the case of Breese Stevens, the field was there long before most people were even alive, and people bought houses around it knowing it was there first. That's a different situation.

I don't really care what happens over by Edgewood except in terms of principle. How much change is OK before your quality of life and your home value take a hit? What are the rights of the homeowner, and what are the rights of a developer? (in this case Edgewood is developing something)

I am generally pro development as long as certain established principles and procedures are followed. The neighborhood deserves some leverage here, though. It's a big change to suck up, and the neighborhood has other resources to protect including the Lake Wingra natural environment. This project should not be a slam dunk and everybody who's resisting isn't a mindless NIMBY type.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby Igor » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:43 am

snoqueen wrote:The point that the stadium would host football only a few days a year weakens the persuasiveness of Edgewood's case. If the facility is to be used so seldom, why is it a good use of the school's resources? They already have a field, and a nice-looking, convenient one.


Just to be clear, the field they have is the field they are talking about when they say stadium. The "stadium" is adding bleachers, lights, and a PA system to the existing field. Think of something that a rural high school in Wisconsin would have.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby Ducatista » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:08 am

snoqueen wrote:I am happy to know the proposed stadium is for other sports in addition to football, because I don't see a big future for high school (or college) football in the long run.

American football is a many-billion-dollar industry. The profit motive is too strong for it to just peter out. More likely: the industry will pump money into researching ways to mitigate risk.

snoqueen wrote:The point that the stadium would host football only a few days a year weakens the persuasiveness of Edgewood's case. If the facility is to be used so seldom, why is it a good use of the school's resources? They already have a field, and a nice-looking, convenient one.

If you're really curious, there's plenty of info out there, like this State Journal article from a month ago about Ald. Arntsen's proposed revisions to the plan. The article points out that "The school hasn’t played a home football game in two decades due to the lack of lights," and that one of the adjacent neighborhood associations (VNA) supports the proposal. It also has sidebar links to articles that explain what else the stadium would be used for.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby gargantua » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:29 pm

To another one of Sno's questions, Edgewood College doesn't have a football team, so they wouldn't need to borrow the stadium for that purpose.
As for property values, Memorial, LaFollette, and Monona Grove have similar if not even larger facilities located in residential areas. If their presence is a problem for the neighbors, it would be news to me. I'm pretty sure that Edgewood's opponents wouldn't hesitate to bring it to everyone's attention if it helped their case.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby david cohen » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:09 pm

gargantua wrote:
david cohen wrote:It's not Edgewood College, it's Edgewood High School. Believe me, the administration of Edgewood College are a dishonest bunch of hacks. The folks who run the high school have been playing the bait and switch game with the neighborhood, but now, with all the publicity, they are having to come clean about their real intentions.

I would ask you to prove that Edgewood has been playing bait and switch. The agreement they signed has a provision for amendment. This is an amendment. So, where's the beef?


E-wood wasn't forthright in their dealings. Their original plan for the Goodman Field never included any of the shit they are trying to get now.

gargantua
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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby gargantua » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:01 pm

david cohen wrote:
gargantua wrote:
david cohen wrote:It's not Edgewood College, it's Edgewood High School. Believe me, the administration of Edgewood College are a dishonest bunch of hacks. The folks who run the high school have been playing the bait and switch game with the neighborhood, but now, with all the publicity, they are having to come clean about their real intentions.

I would ask you to prove that Edgewood has been playing bait and switch. The agreement they signed has a provision for amendment. This is an amendment. So, where's the beef?


E-wood wasn't forthright in their dealings. Their original plan for the Goodman Field never included any of the shit they are trying to get now.

So you seem to be saying that if "original plans" ever change, it must be because one of the parties knew what they wanted to do all along and concealed their intentions. Do you think that's true in every instance, or only when a Catholic private school is involved? Actually, it doesn't matter. It's a nasty accusation to make, and you don't really have any evidence to support it.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:29 pm

Ok, I did the assigned background reading, the December State Journal piece.

Among other things, it says

The school hasn’t played a home football game in two decades due to the lack of lights, and proposed improvements would add seating, team rooms, restrooms, concessions, ticket booth, storage, press box, lighting and a sound system.


Apparently they were using another game site in Middleton, which is hardly a faraway foreign country, but that arrangement has come to an end. Okay.

But team rooms, restrooms, concessions, a ticket booth, storage... that's not what I think of when I think about rural high schools' sports fields. That's a stadium, if you ask me -- a permanent structure with full utilities, not just some bleachers and a scoreboard. I'm siding with those who want it described as a stadium, whether they're for or against the thing.

Also from the article:

...many in the immediate area and surrounding neighborhood have concerns about lighting, sound system and crowd noise, traffic, parking, uses, and the impact on property values and wildlife at Lake Wingra.


I don't blame them. I would feel the same way if I lived over there, as I tried to explain earlier. These are valid concerns and represent a big negative change for home owners nearby, who presumably bought in that area because they liked its quieter nature.

Also from the article:

Ald. Allen Arntsen, 13th District, who represents the site, said he’ll support an amendment to Edgewood’s master plan to allow the improvements, but only if daytime use of the athletic field is capped at what’s in place for 2018, and if the school’s use of lights is limited to a total of five nighttime events per year.

Edgewood has been seeking a maximum of 40 nighttime uses for the stadium...


If this is accurate, I can understand the accusations of bait and switch. Five nights and forty nights are way different and for those who do not like the nighttime experience, it might just be a deal breaker as far as "should we move away from here" goes. And that's not a cheap or trivial decision. I don't blame the people with complaints and doubts, once again.

Maybe this is one of those things that comes down to sports fans vs non fans. Each side sees the issues and damage/benefits so differently there's hardly any common ground to be found. I thought the alder, as of December, did a good job trying to divide things down the middle.

As far as whether high school and college football will be around in the future -- we can't have this argument in a sensible way because nobody knows. Get back to me in 25 years, or 40. Don't forget where collegiate boxing ended up. I think in a generation or so, people will be wondering how come we ever had kids playing this sport. Even now, fewer parents are letting high school kids play. If they don't play in high school, they won't in college. Damage control and better helmets are surely going to be tried, but the laws of physics and physiology don't bend. We'll see -- and if we don't, our descendents will.

The Edgewood thing however is not about football or even sports so much as about the nature of a neighborhood and the rights of various parties when changes are imminent.

And of course Edgewood will win and do whatever they want, same as Edgewater did. That's how things work in this town, no matter how much we pretend otherwise.

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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby Cadfael » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:47 pm

snoqueen wrote:And of course Edgewood will win and do whatever they want, same as Edgewater did. That's how things work in this town, no matter how much we pretend otherwise.

This.

gargantua
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Re: How Good is the Goodman Foundation for Madison?

Postby gargantua » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:57 pm

Cadfael wrote:
snoqueen wrote:And of course Edgewood will win and do whatever they want, same as Edgewater did. That's how things work in this town, no matter how much we pretend otherwise.

This.

I'm not at all sure it will work out that way. As you say, this is Madison. Edgewood's a Catholic school. In Madison. This is not like Edgewater.


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