What's up with Baraboo?

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Weather Bob
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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Weather Bob » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:41 am

First, let's dispense with the question about whether this was actually a "sieg heil" thing or just kids waving.

* One of the boys is (gleefully!) doing that white-power version of the "OK" hand symbol
* One of the boys says he refused to go along with the group because of moral objections
* One of the boys tweeted about the photo gloating that they got "even the black kid" to do it

None of those would apply if it was just kids waving to their parents.

I think it was a stupid joke that happened too quickly for a lot of (notoriously thoughtless) teenage boys to think through. Now they're paying the price for that, in the form of social opprobrium and embarrassment. The school should absolutely address it, at least by encouraging some reflection about what happened and about the need to act responsibly and thoughtfully. Talk about further punishment seems over the top, as far as I'm concerned. It's quite conceivable that some of the kids were not paying attention and literally didn't realize what they were doing.

But from other things that have come up -- e.g., in the twitter thread I linked to -- there seems to be a wider problem with tolerance for racist behavior at the school. Addressing that seems pretty urgent. If this is the event that precipitates that, then good.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby ttt3 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:43 am

Agree with Weather Bob.

While at face value this appears totally awful, keep in mind these are 16-17 year old kids. Kids that age do stupid / inappropriate / offensive / implusive stuff sometimes just to get a reaction and "rebel", or for no other reason than immaturity. One kid probably decided to "throw it up" (without thinking about it much) and impulsively a number of others followed without thinking critically about it. A bet a number of them forgot about it shortly after. (I certainly could be wrong on this but I'm goign to give them the benefit of the doubt)

You can't expect a kid to be 100% informed and act like an adult. They are not adults. They are going to make mistakes. People who are saying "expel them" and heavy-handed stuff like without knowing the specifics I bet aren't parents.

I would hope/bet that a majority of them would apologize and feel bad about what they did. If that is not the case I am all for coming down ultra-hard on them. If people are trying to cover it up saying it was a "wave" or "bad timing" I think that's BS too.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:17 pm

Regardless of any discipline meted out by the school, the image could have far-reaching consequences for the young men pictured there, according to a university administrator.

"This could very well have an impact on their ability to get into college," said Stefanie Niles, vice president for Enrollment and Communications at Ohio Wesleyan University and president of the National Association for College Admission Counseling.

"Everything has a reverberating effect," she said. "I think a lot of those young men will have a variety of responses from the institutions that were considering them."

Fallout continues for Baraboo students in wake of photo showing what looks like Nazi salute

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Bwis53 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:38 pm

I think they should retake that part of their history class, so they would realize why it looked bad. It caused pain to veterans, Jews, people who work at the Auschwitz Memorial, Germans, all of Europe, etc. We know what it looks like. Maybe a survivor or someone from the Holocaust Project could explain it to them. I think more "punishment" would be counter productive.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:13 pm

Back when I was an active social studies teacher, I brought Holocaust survivors into my classroom to speak to my students, where they showed the numbers tattooed on their arms. I assume not too many still survive to give their first hand accounts of the atrocities they witnessed.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby gozer » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:32 pm

Bwis53 wrote:Boy this is hard. Perhaps because one of their former or current officials was one of my bullies. The fucker was on the news some time ago. I still work on acceptance and forgiveness.



sounds like the toxic atmosphere hypothesis is the most likely, or the largest component of a mixture?

i did a thought experiment to see if i could come up with the least likely, maybe absurd explanation, and that is maybe the aesthetic terrorism/politically pornographic street theatre theory (which i have not yet heard proposed but came to mind with the word transgression), as if they had laibach or death in june play at the prom and theme was "nacht und nebel" or something . . . i cannot imagine them being that sophisticated, not necessarily anything aimed at them because of their age (everyone is different and has different experiences, irrespective of how long it took) or region (wasn't frank lloyd wright from up there?) it just is, if they even knew much of that artistic/political/social milleu they would also have a better knowledge of the events surrounding the shoah and second world war . . .

i also think if trump had fuck all to do with it, it was equal measures in response to the recent visibility of ku kluxers and neo-nazi clowns and youthful rebellion against the rhetoric and actions of any over-the-top anti-trump people amongst parents, faculty, staff, media people . . . i am starting to form the opinion that the latter may also form the basis at some level for trump's relative inaction about things like that, something like "see? they pretty much all act the same way" that would probably make sense to someone with long-term sleep deprivation, no? at least for a fleeting second?

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Beaver » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:45 am

People need to relax and go polka dancing. There is some good German heritage.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=78856

david cohen
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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby david cohen » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:24 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Back when I was an active social studies teacher, I brought Holocaust survivors into my classroom to speak to my students, where they showed the numbers tattooed on their arms. I assume not too many still survive to give their first hand accounts of the atrocities they witnessed.


You are correct, not many survive to tell their tale. I remember when I was 8 and my father had a little Mercedes sports car. We lived in Baltimore (dad was doing his medical training at Johns Hopkins) and he was looking for a mechanic. We went to this little auto shop and a small man, maybe 5'3", greeted us and began to talk about the car. My father asked him how he was so knowledgeable with regards to Mercedes and things got quiet, then he said Dr. Cohen, Mercedes saved my life. Then he rolled up his sleeve and there were those fucking numbers on his arm. Turns out he was an expert Mercedes mechanic and in exchange for keeping the top-brass of the Nazi regime's Mercedes running smoothly, he and his family were not executed- but they were forced to live in the camps. Those numbers ALWAYS stuck in my head, especially when I got a bit older and could really understand.

That is why it's not ok to even joke about this shit. Not to mention the thousands of American soldiers who died fighting those bastards.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby penquin » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm

Weather Bob wrote:One of the boys is (gleefully!) doing that white-power version of the "OK" hand symbol

Image

The student wasn't even doing it in the style of the alleged "white power" sign but rather he was doing it exactly like the game that has been played by kids for the past couple generations.

And yes, I said "alleged" 'cause apparently it doesn't really mean "White Power" at all....rather it means "Let's troll some liberals"....and appears to be working as intended.

Has the simple thumb-and-forefinger “OK” hand gesture become a common white supremacist hand sign? Not quite, but it has become a popular gesture used by people across several segments of the right and far right—including some actual white supremacists—who generally use it to trigger reactions, or what they would describe as “trolling the libs.”

The “OK” hand gesture originated as one of these hoaxes in February 2017 when an anonymous 4channer announced “Operation O-KKK,” telling other members that “we must flood Twitter and other social media websites…claiming that the OK hand sign is a symbol of white supremacy.” The user even provided a helpful graphic showing how the letters WP (for “white power”) could be traced within an “OK” gesture. The originator and others also suggested useful hashtags to help spread the hoax, such as #PowerHandPrivilege and #NotOkay. “Leftists have dug so deep down into their lunacy,” wrote the poster, “We must force [them] to dig more, until the rest of society ain’t going anywhere near that s***.”

Even though its usage has expanded and evolved, it still seems primarily intended to trigger or troll people on the left and cause them to react, although some white supremacists have also used it—generally jokingly—among themselves.

It is important to realize that the “OK” gesture is a nearly universal hand gesture and most usage of it is completely innocuous. Even when used as described here, the fact that white supremacists, the alt lite and many Trump supporters all use the symbol means that one cannot assume that anyone who poses with such a gesture is intending or exhibiting an association with white supremacy.


https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-sym ... ng-gesture

Some folks on this forum will probably say that the ADL is just a bunch of Nazis who like to spread lies, but their story seems to check out...
Last edited by penquin on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Bwis53 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:55 pm

During my stay in the Chicago area, I worked for a Jewish owned business. One day a man with those numbers on his forearm came in. I tried not to stare. I knew what they were. I looked at my boss and asked,"Are those the numbers?" "Yes," he replied, solemnly,"those are the numbers." And sadly, genocide continues. Will we ever learn? Not if we forget. I considered it my responsibility to educate my kids.

The love demonstration in Baraboo, was heartening.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby DCB » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 pm

penquin wrote:
Weather Bob wrote:One of the boys is (gleefully!) doing that white-power version of the "OK" hand symbol

Image

The student wasn't even doing it in the style of the alleged "white power" sign but rather he was doing it exactly like the game that has been played by kids for the past couple generations.

And yes, I said "alleged" 'cause apparently it doesn't really mean "White Power" at all....rather it means "Let's troll some liberals"....and appears to be working as intended.

[i]Has the simple thumb-and-forefinger “OK” hand gesture become a common white supremacist hand sign? Not quite, but it has become a popular gesture used by people across several segments of the right and far right—including some actual white supremacists—who generally use it to trigger reactions, or what they would describe as “trolling the libs.”

There is no material difference between signifying "I support white supremacy just to piss people off" and "I support white supremacy because i'm a racist".

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby penquin » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm

DCB wrote:There is no material difference between signifying "I support white supremacy just to piss people off" and "I support white supremacy because i'm a racist".


I disagree. IMHO a kid saying/doing stuff just to shock people is waaaaay different than a kid truly wanting all Jews to die....but (sincerely) understand how people would view it as you do.

And I'd like to hear from this kid before I'm convinced he was throwing up a WP sign...it still looks like he was playing the punch-game rather than the gesture that 4chan says is a secret-sign for racists.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Cadfael » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:53 pm

It's not really "trolling the libs." That's their story, in a fairly successful attempt to get double duty out of one symbol. They deliberately adopted it as a white power sign so they could claim that it's pretend, so they can fuck with liberals who think it's a white power sign just because racists flash it to each other and smirk when they do it.

And when they're called on it, they just say we're pretending, ha ha ha. But they aren't pretending to be racists. They are racists pretending to troll liberals by creating a new symbol, using it, and then saying it's not really a racist symbol because I'm doing it to piss you off.

The only people who do it are racists announcing their racism, but it's not a racism thing.

I have to admit it's a really ingenious tactic. It'll finally fade away but it's got a lot of mileage left in it yet.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby massimo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:23 pm

Yeah, instead of using a "real" white power sign to communicate white power and make decent people angry, they collaborate and make up a new white power sign to communicate white power and make decent people angry. So it's ok I think.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby gozer » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:34 pm

if they do that sign in algeria it is 15 times worse than "go fuck your mother in the arse" and people have been pulled out of automobiles and had the shit beat out of them for making the "okay" version of it. presumably the other version too. maybe that will make it 225 times worse . . . then comes the question "are or aren't north africans 'white' people too?" which i doubt any of the ku klux crowd and fellow travellers can coherently answer. there is really not an accurate answer since the ideas of race they are propounding are the worst xix. century junk science and superstition which have been discredited over and over again . . .

hej kids: if u are going to go on public record supporting a discredited hate ideology associated with people being dragged by vehicles multiple times to just list a couple of incidents, and a variant whose adherents probably shot at your grandfathers, go for the semi-clandestine but unambiguous three fingers outside the belt for k k k . . . heck, maybe a professional anti-semite of the arafat-habash stripe will blow your arse up with mother of satan in some public place or with an i e d in wherever the next war is . . .


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