What's up with Baraboo?

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Paleo2
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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Paleo2 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:30 am

Henry Vilas wrote:I've heard different reports. One boy who didn't salute, said he didn't do so because he felt it was morally wrong and that some parents shouted out don't do it. Another boy in the front row is seen giving a white power hand signal.

The waving at parents excuse is bullshit.


Agreed.

There are some people who think racism isn’t a problem in Wisconsin; that racism is a southern thing. I have non-white family members, and I can tell you racism is real, even in Madison. Such as my wife seeing incompetent whites people promoted instead of her, and these folks screw up the job. Or my kids getting some racist comments at school.

I will say this: Madison is not nearly as bad as Baraboo seems to be, and I have heard some really bad stories from some other villages in this area. When one of my kids got racist insults at school, the assistant principal rounded up the kids and read them the riot act. Then he called their parents. That ended the problem.

Some of the reports indicate the school officials at Baraboo HS are less concerned.

DCB
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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby DCB » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:51 am

Beaver wrote:
DCB wrote: And I urge to reconsider your statement that this "didn't hurt anyone".

Didn't hurt anyone physically...
Yet.

Beaver wrote:It was just a misunderstanding. Some people can't tell the difference between a goodbye wave and nazi salute.
Nothing to see here, move along.

This is a common strategy used by bigots. They speak or act in ways that are obviously racist, then pretend that they are being misinterpreted. They know their message is getting out, but they refuse to take responsibility for it. (Every bully is a coward).

"We even got the black kid to throw it up". In other words, they were well aware that it was a racists.
Does that look like a 'wave'? or a 'high five' to you?

I hope you're not buying this bullshit excuse.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Galoot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:16 am

Shame on you, Baraboo. In spite of getting rid of Walker, the entire nation now sees Wisconsin as a frozen version of Mississippi. And they don't seem to be wrong.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Donald » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:52 pm

I'm not sure what to think of this. I grew up in the 1950s and 60s. Many of our Dads fought in WWII, and we were told how awful the Nazis were. We were scolded if we did the Nazi salute even in play. It was in the ballpark of the f-word of things you didn't do. When we got older and were protesting, we used the Nazi salute toward government officials who were prolonging the end of the Vietnam War or resisting civil rights. It was meant to call attention to the way we thought the government was behaving, not a sign of racism. Actually, just the opposite. So, a particular sign or gesture can have different meanings.

I think what this might be both better and worse than how it is coming off right now. I don't see these kids as having put much thought at all into what they were doing. It seems to have been a spur of the moment deal. Certainly it wasn't a protest. I'm sure most knew the gesture had some awful connotations, but they were just caught up in the moment and going along because boys of that age like to push the boundaries.

Bad judgement and adolescent boy behavior, for sure. Maybe racism for a few. Let's hope that's what it is. I'd hate to think all those guys are racists.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Galoot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:54 pm

I have no doubt at all that they are racists.

Donald
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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Donald » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:11 pm

If you look at old pictures of parades, you will see, as the Stars and Stripes passed by, people giving what looks like the Nazi salute. Apparently that was what you were supposed to do back then to honor the flag. When the Nazi salute became a big deal, our flag etiquette changed to removing hats and putting hands over heart.

It just is another example of the same gesture having multiple meanings.

I've always thought the right wing was more into these sorts of rituals, imbuing them with meaning beyond reason. Gangs and fraternities, I guess, do this, too, but they are as big of losers as the righties, as far as I'm concerned. I guess you can see racism there, or you can just see some kids acting dumb. In the absence of any information that this was some righty coven, I'd bet it's just kids acting dumb.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Cadfael » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Donald wrote:In the absence of any information that this was some righty coven, I'd bet it's just kids acting dumb.

I don't think there was any righty coven involved and I agree this was kids acting dumb. The dumbery involved was racism.

Racism has found a comfortable enabling home in the right wing but politics for these kids doesn't extend very far beyond yelling "White Power" in the halls.
Last edited by Cadfael on Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby snoqueen » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:45 pm

Donald wrote:If you look at old pictures of parades, you will see, as the Stars and Stripes passed by, people giving what looks like the Nazi salute. Apparently that was what you were supposed to do back then to honor the flag. When the Nazi salute became a big deal, our flag etiquette changed to removing hats and putting hands over heart.

It just is another example of the same gesture having multiple meanings.

I've always thought the right wing was more into these sorts of rituals, imbuing them with meaning beyond reason. Gangs and fraternities, I guess, do this, too, but they are as big of losers as the righties, as far as I'm concerned. I guess you can see racism there, or you can just see some kids acting dumb. In the absence of any information that this was some righty coven, I'd bet it's just kids acting dumb.


Sometime during the Eisenhower administration, the country changed the ceremonial gestures that went with the Pledge of Allegiance. The new version was what we use now: the citizen puts their right hand over wherever they imagine their heart to be, and leaves it there during the entire pledge. I don't remember what year it was changed (I was in early grade school, so say 1954? Go ahead and look it up), but the older version started with the hand-on-heart during "I pledge allegiance..." and then when you got to "to the flag" you extended your right arm toward the flag and held it there during the remainder of the pledge, palm open and facing to your left.

I do not remember being told why they changed it, but it could very well have been because it looked like a Nazi salute and the country still had a clear idea of who the Nazis were. Maybe it was considered tasteless to have a flag salute that looked so much like theirs. Nobody gave us little kids that reasoning, though. They just told us we were doing it a new way now. Another change that happened around the same time (1950s) was putting "in god we trust" on our money. In the 50s, we made some changes you could never pass today.

I'm not looking at the pictures you refer to, but the arm-extended salute by an American was not uncommon sixty or seventy years ago and it didn't automatically designate the saluter as a Nazi. Donald is right in that.

I'm not sure I can write Baraboo off to kids acting dumb, though. They got that idea from somewhere and they thought it was cool. I write it off to internet sites that appeal to young white males, and perhaps to families where right-wing politics and an attitude are standard. For both reasons, I don't take it as harmless foolishness. It just takes one young guy with a chip on his shoulder, guns in the house or car/truck, and some bad influences to commit the next mass shooting.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Donald » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 pm

Back a few years ago a Wisconsin basketball team was accused of flashing gang signs. As I recall, some folks got all twisted up, and the team was going to be banned from playing, or some such thing, by the WIAA. The contretemps lasted several weeks, because no one wanted to listen to the kids' explanation that they got the sign from the UW-Madison men's basketball team.

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that the hundred or so kids in that photo are racist Nazis. That picture was taken a half year ago, and I haven't heard of any racist rallies in Baraboo. If they are a secret Nazi cell, these kids are certainly more disciplined than the real Nazis who were infiltrating the movie and defense industries around Los Angeles in the 1930s.

I'm sorry. I can't help laughing. I'm as progressive and anti-racist as they come. I was probably the first on this forum to point out how much like Hitler our president is. And I pointed out that Trump was the symptom and his supporters were the problem. But sometimes the left acts like Trump supporters in its paranoia. At best I might concede maybe a few kids have some Nazi tendencies, and maybe they influenced some others to participate half-heartedly in what looks like a Nazi rally. But I'm sure this is a more like the basketball team contretemps or some high school boy ridiculousness than like Hitler in Nuremberg.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Bwis53 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:21 pm

I'm a little surprised that the photographer or teachers didn't say anything. The photographer said, on ch15, that he just told the kids to make a "high sign". Maybe it's just me and Jews who would be sensitive to what it looks like. It's like saying the "N" word.I think a teacher did mention that they need a history lesson. One student did say he knew what it looked like and did not raise his hands. Why was he sensitive and the rest not?

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:28 pm

If the boys were told to wave at their parents (as some said that was the purpose of the "high sign") why did a significant minority of the boys not do so?

Maybe they were orphans.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby DCB » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:48 pm

Donald wrote:Back a few years ago a Wisconsin basketball team was accused of flashing gang signs. As I recall, some folks got all twisted up, and the team was going to be banned from playing, or some such thing, by the WIAA. The contretemps lasted several weeks, because no one wanted to listen to the kids' explanation that they got the sign from the UW-Madison men's basketball team.

I'm still waiting to hear from the one of the students to explain what they did. But at least one of the students refused to join in group fun because he felt it was immoral. Which suggests to me that it was not intended as a "hello, Mom" sign.
Donald wrote:Honestly, I have a hard time believing that the hundred or so kids in that photo are racist Nazis. That picture was taken a half year ago, and I haven't heard of any racist rallies in Baraboo. If they are a secret Nazi cell, these kids are certainly more disciplined than the real Nazis who were infiltrating the movie and defense industries around Los Angeles in the 1930s.

I think this is missing the point. They don't have to be card-carrying Nazis planning to burn down the Reichstag for their behavior to be reprehensible.
My guess is they intentionally made a Nazi salute, because it felt transgressive. Sort of like mooning a bunch of Nuns. And they are indifferent to the full significance of their actions. They may not even understand the direct connection between 'Sieg Hiel' and shooting up a Synagogue.

That seems like a real problem to me.

Also
A week before last week's midterm elections, area residents received white nationalist propaganda in their mailboxes. The single-page fliers with the headline "White Lives Matter" linked to websites promoting nationalist and anti-Semitic views.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby gargantua » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:52 pm

I thought back to my high school class. We had what I believe was a typical number of miscreants and misfits. But I can't think of a single classmate who would have done something like that.
But, it was a long time ago, so maybe things have really changed that much.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Bwis53 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:32 pm

I went to grade school at Elm Lawn in Middleton, 1955-1960. I remember in 2nd grade, our teacher had several of us students, introduce ourselves and where we were born. We were all valued and not one derogatory was ever said, in or out of class. My father taught me to respect all people. Then we moved to another small town in Wisconsin. Mainly boys started with the bad behavior. I was told to ignore them and grow a thicker skin. Finally in 1966 we moved to Rockford, where people reveled in their heritage. When the movie Pearl Harbor came out, my husband chaperoned the boys, because their best friends were Vietnamese, to prevent any harrassment. Right after 9/11, I gave a Palestinian friend of theirs a ride to prevent bullying. I let him know I knew the sting. My next door neighbor is a light skinned black who got bullied for being too light by her own community. We can tell each other where it hurts. The silver lining is I can be sensitive to anyone "different" and I see how sick the bullies were.

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Re: What's up with Baraboo?

Postby Marco Polo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 am

We are a little over a year from young white men chatting "the jews will not replace us" in public on national TV.

Dylann Roof was also just 'a boy being a boy' with a mere fascination with Nazi and Confederate iconography.

They should be expelled. They can complete their studies through the GED program.


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