Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

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gozer
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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gozer » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:25 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:
In 1991, when the Soviet Union was breaking up and the promise of democracy was in the air, Moscow and other cities across the former U.S.S.R. rushed to change the names of streets and squares bearing Soviet-era names. Hundreds of statues of Vladimir Lenin, the leader of the Bolshevik Revolution, came down, some by force and some by a democratic vote.... So did monuments to many other Soviet luminaries.

A statue of Felix Dzerzhinsky, the founder of the Soviet secret police agency that was the precursor to the KGB... Moscow City Council voted in October 1991 to dismantle the Dzerzhinsky statue, which was toppled by demonstrators two months earlier...



well, there u go . . . *hint hint*
those russians have spunk & pluck & vision & initiative

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gozer » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm

wasn't there some big blowout on the extreme right during the 1960s here having to do with the fact that they really didn't want to adhere to a european ideology? therefore the vast majority of the alt-right folks are "nationalists" of some stripe, or other ideologies such as a coterie of laveyan satanists for some reason, but the neo-nazis get the bulk of the attention because, well, they have the evil genius of goebbels working for them and know propaganda and how to manipulate symbolism, and the broadcast media is very lazy . . . in the book god, guns & glory (finch, 1982) the author interviewed an f b i agent who said there were about 500 of them (neo-nazis) and "about a third of them are looking out for the cops" . . . now, with the natural population increase, there are what, now, 625 of them? yes, lots of the alt-right crowd are anti-semites, but the brownshirts didn't have a monopoly on that evil nonsense . . .

meanwhile, there probably are not much more than that of *real* nazis left, many of whom would be pushing 100 years old at this point and still have reason to keep their heads down . . . none the less, there are plenty of people who have family members, or themselves, who suffered under them and their fellow travellers in one way or another, and i'm sure all are at least moderately concerned about the awful taste of the alt-right, but the moral of this story: stop using nazi as a meta-syntactic variable for people with whom u disagree. it still means something, u know . . .
Last edited by gozer on Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gargantua » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:11 pm

I wonder if Nazi is about the worst thing that you can call someone. I don't think that I ever have. I've called people idiot, or asshole, or stupid. I've called Leah Vukmir loathsome and I'll stick by it. But I've never been driven to call anyone a Nazi. It shouldn't be used lightly. I don't think it's bandied about that much on the Forum, but I see and hear it used more on other social media.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby DCB » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:26 pm

Paleo2 wrote:
Should the French close down La Cambre Cemetery?

I don't know anything about that place. Is it just a bunch of dead bodies with gravestones, like the ones at Confederate Rest that nobody objects to?
Or does have it a 'special' monument put up after the war by neo-Nazis?

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:00 am

jonnygothispen wrote:After watching Spike Lee's BlacKKKlansman, I think the City made a wise choice. Germany removed it's symbols of Nazism. A Sieg Heil will land you in jail.

As much as I can appreciate the 'heritage' of the South, we can all do w/o reviving that part of it.


The cenotaph was not a reflection of the heritage of the South. It was paid for by United Daughters of Confederacy at the express request of Madison friends of Alice Whiting Watermen, men who had been Union generals,each of whom lost an arm in battle. Whatever else UDC was doing elsewhere to advance the "Lost Cause" myth, this wasn't part of it.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:11 am

DCB wrote:
Paleo2 wrote:
Should the French close down La Cambre Cemetery?

I don't know anything about that place. Is it just a bunch of dead bodies with gravestones, like the ones at Confederate Rest that nobody objects to?
Or does have it a 'special' monument put up after the war by neo-Nazis?


As the foremost expert on Madison history pointed out, the centograph is not what you seem to think it is. The ‘special’ monument was taken down already.

La Cambe Cemetery has an information center with a permanent exhibit on the German War Graves Commission, a database with the names of the German war dead so people can find the names of the dead, and other exhibits such as a large grove of trees to symbolize peace.

In other words, the French can respect the German dead, even though the Nazis occupied their country, whereas the trendy folks of the Madison Common Council cannot even respect their dead countrymen. This is after the US government declared that Confederate soldiers were entitled to be treated the same as Union soldiers.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gozer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:28 am

Paleo2 wrote:
DCB wrote:
Paleo2 wrote:
Should the French close down La Cambre Cemetery?

I don't know anything about that place. Is it just a bunch of dead bodies with gravestones, like the ones at Confederate Rest that nobody objects to?
Or does have it a 'special' monument put up after the war by neo-Nazis?


As the foremost expert on Madison history pointed out, the centograph is not what you seem to think it is. The ‘special’ monument was taken down already.
.


um, ja, i've seen it and i am 99 ⁴⁴⁄₁₀₀ per cent certain it's a cenotaph, from the greek for "empty tomb" . . . sorry about that, not trying to be a wiseacre*, but since "centograph" sent me looking for the unabridged oxford english dictionary and cassell's english/german dictionary and the 10 minute diversion i thought should be memorialised with a post . . .

---
* what's a wiseacre?
-- 0·405 hectares
-- me, 2001

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby DCB » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:48 am

Stu Levitan wrote:The cenotaph was not a reflection of the heritage of the South. It was paid for by United Daughters of Confederacy at the express request of Madison friends of Alice Whiting Watermen, men who had been Union generals,each of whom lost an arm in battle. Whatever else UDC was doing elsewhere to advance the "Lost Cause" myth, this wasn't part of it.

Does anyone else at Forest Hill have a cenotaph or other non-gravestone memorial? Or is Confederate Rest the only group?

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:52 am

Stu Levitan wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:After watching Spike Lee's BlacKKKlansman, I think the City made a wise choice. Germany removed it's symbols of Nazism. A Sieg Heil will land you in jail.

As much as I can appreciate the 'heritage' of the South, we can all do w/o reviving that part of it.


The cenotaph was not a reflection of the heritage of the South. It was paid for by United Daughters of Confederacy at the express request of Madison friends of Alice Whiting Watermen, men who had been Union generals,each of whom lost an arm in battle. Whatever else UDC was doing elsewhere to advance the "Lost Cause" myth, this wasn't part of it.


I think that it could fall under consensus of interpretation. As the meanings of words have changed depending on how they're used, so goes symbolism as well.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:00 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:After watching Spike Lee's BlacKKKlansman, I think the City made a wise choice. Germany removed it's symbols of Nazism. A Sieg Heil will land you in jail.

As much as I can appreciate the 'heritage' of the South, we can all do w/o reviving that part of it.


The cenotaph was not a reflection of the heritage of the South. It was paid for by United Daughters of Confederacy at the express request of Madison friends of Alice Whiting Watermen, men who had been Union generals,each of whom lost an arm in battle. Whatever else UDC was doing elsewhere to advance the "Lost Cause" myth, this wasn't part of it.


I think that it could fall under consensus of interpretation. As the meanings of words have changed depending on how they're used, so goes symbolism as well.


So when did listing the names of fallen soldiers mean endorsing their cause? It only seems to be that way in Madison.

Is there any other place on the planet where listing the names of fallen soldiers means endorsing their cause? I gave an example of a cemetery of German war dead in France. They still haven't gotten the word that they are endorsing Hitler by doing so. Someone needs to let them know!

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:03 pm

It's my understanding that the individual grave markers were not removed, and that their names are on those also. Is that true? If so, then a collection of the names on one stone would tend to represent their collective cause.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gozer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:25 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:After watching Spike Lee's BlacKKKlansman, I think the City made a wise choice. Germany removed it's symbols of Nazism. A Sieg Heil will land you in jail.

As much as I can appreciate the 'heritage' of the South, we can all do w/o reviving that part of it.


The cenotaph was not a reflection of the heritage of the South. It was paid for by United Daughters of Confederacy at the express request of Madison friends of Alice Whiting Watermen, men who had been Union generals,each of whom lost an arm in battle. Whatever else UDC was doing elsewhere to advance the "Lost Cause" myth, this wasn't part of it.


I think that it could fall under consensus of interpretation. As the meanings of words have changed depending on how they're used, so goes symbolism as well.
it may come down to the extent to which it is a memorial to the soldiers themselves . . . after all, just like any other war, powerful people sent others into battle to fight for one thing or another, not always in the best interest of every single person who bore arms in the conflict . . . there was conscription on both sides of this, right? it stands to reason that not all of the confederate states of america soldiers were slave owners who enthusiastically rushed on to the battlefield to defend the right of others to own other people, correct? i could be wrong, of course . . .

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby gozer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:42 pm

gargantua wrote:I wonder if Nazi is about the worst thing that you can call someone.


well, in general, i think the c word is the worst of the worst in english -- i have heard of people fainting after hearing people called it . . .

I don't think that I ever have. I've called people idiot, or asshole, or stupid. I've called Leah Vukmir loathsome and I'll stick by it. But I've never been driven to call anyone a Nazi. It shouldn't be used lightly. I don't think it's bandied about that much on the Forum, but I see and hear it used more on other social media.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:34 pm

I agree that Nazi and Communist have been greatly overused.

That is dangerous, on the Boy Who Cried Wolf level.

If Bush Jr is called a Nazi, then it loses its power when Trump is called a Nazi.
If Trump is called a Nazi, it loses its power when the guy in Brazil is called a Nazi.
If the guy in Brazil is called a Nazi, it loses its power for real, actual Nazis.

Same with the right-wingers overusing Communist and Socialist. If someone slightly left of center like Obama is called a Marxist, then Bernie Sanders, an actual socialist, is less scary. And so on.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:25 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:It's my understanding that the individual grave markers were not removed, and that their names are on those also. Is that true? If so, then a collection of the names on one stone would tend to represent their collective cause.


The marble headstones are substantially degraded, with most names illegible.

The cenotaph is dedicated "In loving memory by United Daughters of Confederacy to Mrs. Alice Whiting Waterman and her 'boys.'" The decedent soldiers are listed by initial and name, with no reference to military service. The only indication the cenotaph is a confederate monument is the reference to UDC. And the only reason the UDC got involved is because two Madison friends of Waterman's, both Union officers who each lost a limb in battle, initiated the fundraising effort to install the monument. The cenotaph may well have a different meaning today after Charlottesville, but it was not a Lost Cause monument at the time of its installation.


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