Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

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Paleo2
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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:12 am

Bwis53 wrote:Ugh! So that's why we got Trump!


Perhaps. I fear the Gods will punish us for this somehow with something truly terrible. Perhaps an EF-5 tornado, or 40 days and nights of flooding, a plague of locusts, or re-election of Scott Walker. I'm not sure which of these would be the worst.

Cadfael
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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:43 am

Paleo2 wrote:At this point, perhaps our city leaders can show how woke they are by digging up the bodies, tarring and feathering the skeletons, and displaying the remains outside the city-county building for all of eternity. That would end racism for all time, wouldn't it?

Do you think it's possible you might be over reacting just the teensiest bit? They've still got graves and stones and you can still fight to have another memorial placed there to tell the story.

Just because one memorial praising slavers is gone, doesn't mean there can't be another memorial telling the story that doesn't glorify and praise the deaths of people who fought for slavery, put up by women who supported slavery.

penquin
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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby penquin » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Saying that soldiers in the CSA were slavers protecting slavery is akin to saying US soldiers in Iraq were oil-producers who were protecting their oil interests or those in Afghanistan are drug smugglers protecting their poppy fields.


It ain't all quite as simple as some simple people try to make it all out to be.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:04 pm

Image

Henry Vilas
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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:09 pm

penquin wrote:Saying that soldiers in the CSA were slavers...

...was only said by you.

Cadfael
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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:16 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
penquin wrote:Saying that soldiers in the CSA were slavers...

...was only said by you.

I'm pretty sure I said it too. As far as I'm concerned if you're fighting for the right to keep slaves, you're a slaver no matter how you feel about it.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:24 pm

A slaver is someone who owns or deals in slaves. What noble cause were the CSA troops, who were usually too poor to own slaves, fighting for? States' rights, as in the right to own certain humans as property.

Paleo2
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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:27 pm

Cadfael wrote:
Paleo2 wrote:At this point, perhaps our city leaders can show how woke they are by digging up the bodies, tarring and feathering the skeletons, and displaying the remains outside the city-county building for all of eternity. That would end racism for all time, wouldn't it?

Do you think it's possible you might be over reacting just the teensiest bit? They've still got graves and stones and you can still fight to have another memorial placed there to tell the story.

Just because one memorial praising slavers is gone, doesn't mean there can't be another memorial telling the story that doesn't glorify and praise the deaths of people who fought for slavery, put up by women who supported slavery.


As the noted Madison historian Stu Levitan pointed out in his capacity as Landmarks Chair, this was NOT a memorial praising slavers. It was a list of names of the dead.

The plaque memorializing the soldiers as heroes of the Lost Cause had already been removed.

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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby Paleo2 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:32 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
penquin wrote:Saying that soldiers in the CSA were slavers...

...was only said by you.


No. Penquin was referencing the post by Cadelfel which seemed to make that connection.

I have often criticized penquin, so it is only fair I point out occasions where he has a good point. There have been plenty of wars I which American soldiers have fought for genocide, imperialism and corporate greed. If we honor the men who fought under Custer and Sherman and Sheridan, why not honor the soldiers who fought under Lee?

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Re: Operation Iraqi Liberation

Postby penquin » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:37 pm

Cadfael wrote:I'm pretty sure I said it too.


Some folks have a bad habit of skimming over (rather than actually reading) posts&threads before giving their knee-jerk response; hence their constant confusion.

As far as I'm concerned if you're fighting for the right to keep slaves, you're a slaver no matter how you feel about it.


Do you feel the same way about US troops who are fought in Vietnam and/or Iraq? Are they all considered "Big Oil" (or whatever the term may be) in your mind?

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:40 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:A slaver is someone who owns or deals in slaves. What noble cause were the CSA troops, who were usually too poor to own slaves, fighting for? States' rights, as in the right to own certain humans as property.

Yes, they were fighting for the right to own slaves. Just because they couldn't own slaves doesn't mean they weren't slavers.

Basically, they were employees of slavers. They dealt in slaves in that they were an instrument by which the buyers and sellers of slaves sought to keep themselves in business.

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Re: there was nothing "civil" about that war

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Paleo2 wrote:If we honor the men who fought under Custer and Sherman and Sheridan, why not honor the soldiers who fought under Lee?

I do not honor those men and I hope that in the future we will make the same effort to tell the real stories as applied to them as we are to the confederate monuments.

But it all takes time and I understand we can't do it all at once.

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Re: Operation Iraqi Liberation

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:46 pm

penquin wrote:Do you feel the same way about US troops who are fought in Vietnam and/or Iraq? Are they all considered "Big Oil" (or whatever the term may be) in your mind?

I protested alongside quite a few of them during the war. The ones who threw their medals over the wall knew they'd been tools of the rich and found no honor in their own actions or their comrades.

So, yes. Most of them didn't realize it at the time but they were indeed employees of big oil and big oil didn't give a fuck about them.

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Re: Civil War Monuments/Shots fired by elementary school

Postby Cadfael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:49 pm

Paleo2 wrote:As the noted Madison historian Stu Levitan pointed out in his capacity as Landmarks Chair, this was NOT a memorial praising slavers. It was a list of names of the dead.

The plaque memorializing the soldiers as heroes of the Lost Cause had already been removed.

I'm sorry for not getting the entire story correct. But I could have sworn it also contained words of praise and glory along with the list of names. Is that not true?

And can you not petition to have a new list of names created?

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Re: Operation Iraqi Liberation

Postby penquin » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:51 pm

Cadfael wrote:
penquin wrote:Do you feel the same way about US troops who are fought in Vietnam and/or Iraq? Are they all considered "Big Oil" (or whatever the term may be) in your mind?
yes.


I disagree with your opinion, but appericate your candor and straight-forwardness.


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