"What happened" by Hillary

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Re: What will happen to Hillary

Postby penquin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:30 am

Bland wrote:To run for President you have to declare your candidacy.

For the 2016 election she did that on Aug 12, 2015

There is paperwork to be filed.

She first filed paperwork (to appear on a primary election ballot) the first week of Nov 2015.

There are ballots to qualify for.


She won her party's nomination on July 26th 2016, qualifying her to appear on the Presidential ballot in Nov.

So it isn't quite as simple as you insist it is. Those are three very different dates, hence me asking at what point you consider someone to be "running for Prez". I don't beleive there was anything rude nor disrespectful in my request in asking you what the conditions for your wager is, and truly don't understand your hostile attitude nor your bigoted attack towards me.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:52 am

Next up, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Discuss.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Ducatista » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:30 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Personal to Hillary: Shhhhhhhhhhh. You should stop talking now.

Because you don't want to hear her? That surprises me, coming from you.

"I don't like what you're saying," or even "What you're saying is total crap," is one thing. "Stop talking" or "you need to go away" makes my blood. fucking. boil.

Personal to Hillary: speak it, sister. Those who don't like it can listen to something else.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:30 am

Ducatista wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Personal to Hillary: Shhhhhhhhhhh. You should stop talking now.

Because you don't want to hear her?

Me personally? I don't care. But yeah, I believe if Hillary truly cares about this country and the wrong direction it's headed, she really needs to step aside. Just so you know this isn't a "man tells woman to hush now" kinda thing, I feel exactly the same way about Joe Biden, who should also shut up and put to rest once and for all any notion that he's gonna run in 2020. Not sure if you've noticed, Duca, but this country is very divided, and that's not healthy. There is literally no way that anyone named Clinton (yep, Bill and Chelsea should keep their goddman mouths shut too) is gonna help fix that. These people are literally the enemy in the eyes of a good chunk of people -- of voters! -- and you're not gonna be able to convince me that they didn't help get us where we are today by being blind to their own faults, ignoring the warning signs, and generally putting their own personal agendas and ambitions ahead of what's actually best for the country, regardless of how smart and capable they really are or how much of the accusations brought against them are total bullshit. Sorry if that boils your blood but that's how I feel. Any Clinton involved in any way in the upcoming election is a detriment to progressive causes, imho. If the Dems/liberals can't find some younger, less baggage-laden people (from different fucking families already!) then I think we're all pretty much doomed.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Ducatista » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:42 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:There is literally no way that anyone named Clinton (yep, Bill and Chelsea should keep their goddman mouths shut too) is gonna help fix that.

I wouldn't have pegged you for a misuser of "literally." You hate the Clintons, I get it. And you think Hillary scorched the earth. OK, blame away. That doesn't move the mercury for me. It's the shut-up-and-go-away reflex that I find disgusting and sadly predictable. (Except, like I said, I wouldn't have predicted it from you.)

Anyway, here's why "literally no way" is figurative BS.

No argument from me that we need more voices. Some of those voices will come from among the 65 million+ people who voted for Hillary Clinton. Some did so reluctantly. Some, like me, did so enthusiastically. And some of those enthusiastic voters are young people, especially young women, who are energetic and idealistic enough to be inspired to action by Hillary.

That's not speculation — I've seen it. Wouldn't surprise me if you haven't, if you don't spend much time in Hillary-friendly circles, online or IRL. But that you can't even imagine it... yeah, that's a surprise.

Or... are you punking me again??? It's been years. If so, well done.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:05 pm

Ducatista wrote:You hate the Clintons, I get it.

If that's your takeaway then no, you don't get it.
This has nothing to do with my personal views about the Clintons, it's about how they are poison to a large portion of the electorate (and to a lesser extent that electing people from the same fucking families over and over again has got to stop if real change is ever gonna happen.) That said, The Clintons are fine in my eyes as far as sorta right-centrists with strong ties to big business and hawkish views go. But yeah, that's not exactly what I'd like going forward. The time to note this is now, not when there's only two options and one is clearly far, far worse. I certainly voted for Clinton and I didn't have to hold my nose to do so given the alternative. But no, she was hardly my ideal candidate. I don't know if we can do better but we sure as shit better try, and soon. I've never been as worried for the future of this country as I am now. There have been literal Nazis marching in the streets and people -- including in our government -- have been defending them! Not cool.

Ducatista wrote:And you think Hillary scorched the earth. OK, blame away.

I do not blame Hillary for the unreasonableness and lies of her opponents. So no, you're still not getting it. I think I pegged it in my earlier post -- you hear "man tells woman to hush" and assume it's a mansplainy misogynist thing. It ain't. Seems I won't be able to convince you of that.

Ducatista wrote:It's the shut-up-and-go-away reflex that I find disgusting and sadly predictable.

I want the Clintons to shut-up-and-go-away. I want Biden to shut-up-and-go-away. I want Pelosi and Schumer and just about every other established Dem to shut-up-and-go-away. They are not helping. They are making things worse, imho. I want real, progressive change. That will never happen with any of this crew. Not only are they not nearly progressive enough for my taste, they are incapable of getting out of their own way and it's painful to watch. I don't want to have to watch it anymore. I want it to stop.

Ducatista wrote:. . . some of those enthusiastic voters are young people, especially young women, who are energetic and idealistic enough to be inspired to action by Hillary.

Hillary can be an inspiration to these people based on what she's already accomplished, which is quite a lot. But moving forward, how is endless re-evaluation and finger-pointing about "what went wrong" in 2016 inspiring or helpful? How is it helpful for people to float the notion that the candidate who has twice lost her bid for the Presidency -- once to Donald Fucking Trump, no less!! -- should keep plugging away at it instead of finding new people to actually win elections and move us forward? Wouldn't it be more inspiring to have a winning candidate who affects change than one who shoulda won (and I wholeheartedly agree Clinton should have, based on her qualifications, not just her opponent) but didn't?

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby snoqueen » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:43 pm

It's not a mansplainy misogynist thing from my point of view because on this one I pretty much agree with you. We have far more important national issues to deal with. Some politicians are trying to move on and deal. Clinton, whether it's deliberate or just an artifact of her personal style, is not only not moving on, but is taking up a lot of air that could be used more productively. She automatically gets media space because of who she is, and she's wasting it and wasting our time.

I want to know: Who is/are positioning themselves for national office among upcoming Democrats? What are they saying? What kind of people are they, and whom are they attracting? How can we not only protect but expand the universe of potential Democratic voters? What do these voters want?

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Ducatista » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:52 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:If that's your takeaway then no, you don't get it.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:So no, you're still not getting it.

Yeah, I almost edited that, but decided my clumsy paraphrasing wasn't worth refining, because I was poking at your flagrant misuse of "literally," not at your views on the Clintons.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I think I pegged it in my earlier post -- you hear "man tells woman to hush" and assume it's a mansplainy misogynist thing. It ain't. Seems I won't be able to convince you of that.

What are you talking about? I never assumed that. You assumed I assumed that, even though I quoted snoqueen (she of "you need to go away") in what I thought was an elegant way to head off that assumption. What I heard in this thread was just garden variety bitching and bile.

That said: BIG style points for now mansplaining your earlier post. I heard you the first time, and believed you the first time — which was easy, since I hadn't gotten a mansplainy vibe. Until, you know, now.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Hillary can be an inspiration to these people based on what she's already accomplished, which is quite a lot. But moving forward, how is endless re-evaluation and finger-pointing about "what went wrong" in 2016 inspiring or helpful? How is it helpful for people to float the notion that the candidate who has twice lost her bid for the Presidency -- once to Donald Fucking Trump, no less!! -- should keep plugging away at it instead of finding new people to actually win elections and move us forward? Wouldn't it be more inspiring to have a winning candidate who affects change than one who shoulda won (and I wholeheartedly agree Clinton should have, based on her qualifications, not just her opponent) but didn't?

I find her continued fight in the face of repeated losses and disproportionate resistance more inspiring than a victory lap. And even the most cursory skimming of editorials or social media would tell you that I'm far from alone.

Don't YOU think it's important to examine why the candidate who should've won, didn't? That such an examination (or, as you call it, endless re-evaluation and finger-pointing [incuding at herself, by the way] about "what went wrong") is necessary to inoculate future candidates, including your hoped-for progressive paragon, against never-should've-happened losses? Where's the love for the cautionary tale?

Hers shouldn't be the only examination that informs future candidates and campaigns, but it sure as hell is an important one. Maybe not for you, which is fine. I'm not suggesting you need to listen to one more word from the same fucking families. But I'm a little gobsmacked that you can't imagine anyone else getting anything of value from from Hillary Clinton.

Wait — who's floating the notion that Hillary should "keep plugging away at it"? D'you mean you think she's going to run again? Is that what's got you so sour? I'd say the odds of that are vanishingly small. Bernie, though, seems to be gearing up for another Larry David windfall.

Anyway, I've grown fonder and fonder of the book without even reading it, as a big FUCK YOU to everybody nattering on that Hillary should get off the stage. Not your stage, not your call.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 pm

Ducatista wrote:I was poking at your flagrant misuse of "literally"

Here's the thing about that: I don't think I misused it at all.
I believe, unequivocally, there is absolutely no way that anyone named Clinton can help heal the massive rift currently tearing this country in two, at least for the next couple or three decades. I think that's as literally true of a statement as it is to say that Ann Coulter will never sway an actual progressive. I will again reiterate that no, I don't think that's the fault of the Clintons, but those who have vilified them for decades have succeeded to such a degree that a sizable chunk of voters will reject anything they do or say just as reflex. That makes the Clintons not useful moving forward as a means of affecting political change. They can preach to the choir but they've lost their ability to change anybody's mind who isn't already onboard.

Ducatista wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I think I pegged it in my earlier post -- you hear "man tells woman to hush" and assume it's a mansplainy misogynist thing. It ain't. Seems I won't be able to convince you of that.

What are you talking about? I never assumed that. You assumed I assumed that, even though I quoted snoqueen (she of "you need to go away") in what I thought was an elegant way to head off that assumption. What I heard in this thread was just garden variety bitching and bile.

That said: BIG style points for now mansplaining your earlier post. I heard you the first time, and believed you the first time — which was easy, since I hadn't gotten a mansplainy vibe. Until, you know, now.

Ha! Well, I offer a well-earned "fuck me" then by way of apology.
What I think happened here -- and sadly, I do this a lot -- was I conflated what was happening in our conversation with stuff I'm reading/responding to on Facebook. That's on me, so again, my apologies.

Ducatista wrote:I find her continued fight in the face of repeated losses and disproportionate resistance more inspiring than a victory lap. And even the most cursory skimming of editorials or social media would tell you that I'm far from alone.
I thought this was all quite inspiring for a long time. I just think that time has passed. That said, perhaps you're right that telling her to shut up is the wrong approach. Maybe she just needs to change her tune. Because you're right, if she can inspire others, that's nothing but a good thing. Of course I think it's important to examine why she lost. Hasn't that already been done to death, though? Are there still new insights to glean from the last election cycle? In other words, if Hillary wants to inspire people moving forward, I am onboard with her taking to the lecture circuit to do just that. But honestly, that means speaking from her heart to people who might actually follow in her footsteps (as I sincerely hope many more people do) rather than, oh I dunno, taking massive fees to speak to people who already hold considerable power or financial clout. I guess I don't understand what's inspiring about finger-pointing and blame-assignation over last year's election, whether it's self-directed and thoughtful or not. Inspiration is about the future, not the past. (<---sorta vapid sure, but catchy, doncha think?)

Ducatista wrote:Wait — who's floating the notion that Hillary should "keep plugging away at it"? D'you mean you think she's going to run again?

To Clinton's credit, I don't think she has any plans to run again and despite penquin's odd assertions elsewhere, I don't see her current actions reflecting any notion she might. But absolutely many who praise her (in a lot of the same terms you use, hence the ease with which I fell into thinking maybe you did to) have such hopes for her. And as long as people are still clutching desperately to that notion, I fear, they're not looking for new (and again, more progressive) voices. As I noted above, the time to talk about what a disappointment our current crop of Democratic leaders is is now, not in three years when the election cycle is already in full swing and we're once again being offered a binary choice of "not really what I want" and "dear lord anyone but that guy!"

Ducatista wrote:Bernie, though, seems to be gearing up for another Larry David windfall.

Yeah, I so so so don't want Bernie to run again (bottom line: he's too damn old, which was already a complaint I had in the last election cycle) and I wish his supporters (of whom I was absolutely one) would also start casting around for someone else but there is one big difference between Bernie and Hillary; Bernie is still a senator. He should not shut up and he should not go away because his voice is not only needed, it's making a real, if perhaps only small, difference. But he should, I think, if not necessarily grooming someone, at least be suggesting possible candidates for future elections and then throwing his considerable political weight behind them. Again, he should be doing this now. If we wait til 2020 to figure this out, it'll already be too late.

Ducatista wrote:I've grown fonder and fonder of the book without even reading it, as a big FUCK YOU to everybody nattering on that Hillary should get off the stage. Not your stage, not your call.

Well, if you wanna talk specifically about the book, I'm curious how you feel about a point I raised earlier: doesn't it rub you the wrong way that she's using her failed Presidential run as a means of making (let's be honest, massive) profits? It's not like she couldn't have just published all the exact same thoughts on the Web for free, after all. She surely doesn't need the money that a #1 Best Seller brings with it. Just something about the way our Presidential politics suddenly became a for-profit endeavor that really irks me. (Unless it's been that way for a long time and I only just noticed. Sure seems new to me, though.)

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Marvell » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:02 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I believe, unequivocally, there is absolutely no way that anyone named Clinton can help heal the massive rift currently tearing this country in two, at least for the next couple or three decades.


Somewhere George Clinton is sadly shaking his pink mohawk.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Ducatista » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:21 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Here's the thing about that: I don't think I misused it at all.
I believe, unequivocally, there is absolutely no way that anyone named Clinton can help heal the massive rift currently tearing this country in two, at least for the next couple or three decades. I think that's as literally true of a statement as it is to say that Ann Coulter will never sway an actual progressive.

Fair enough. If you can't imagine ANY way that Hillary Clinton could inspire someone to step courageously into the breach and begin a life of public service, or become politically engaged, or reach across the aisle, or do any other thing that might help contribute to healing the rift... then I concede: you did not misuse "literally." I just can't get over you not being able to imagine that.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Ha! Well, I offer a well-earned "fuck me" then by way of apology.
What I think happened here -- and sadly, I do this a lot -- was I conflated what was happening in our conversation with stuff I'm reading/responding to on Facebook. That's on me, so again, my apologies.

I love a good conflation, so no worries.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Of course I think it's important to examine why she lost. Hasn't that already been done to death, though? Are there still new insights to glean from the last election cycle?

Yes. Hers.

Not that my interest is all high-minded. I crave resolution of all the times I wanted her to kick the podium over, smash her water glass against the upended podium, and slice off some insanely underqualified douchebag's ear. And while I'm not gonna get that, I will get confirmation that she wanted to, that she wasn't just standing there in zen-like (or robotic, if you prefer) calm.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Well, if you wanna talk specifically about the book, I'm curious how you feel about a point I raised earlier: doesn't it rub you the wrong way that she's using her failed Presidential run as a means of making (let's be honest, massive) profits?

Not even a little bit. But as a raging capitalist and a big fan, I'm admittedly biased. In any case, I don't think for a second she embarked on this as a for-profit venture. Good god, all the royalties in the world wouldn't be worth the shit she's had to eat for decades.

And on that note, I offer up Wonkette's list of The 19 Books Hillary Clinton Should Write Next. Not everybody's on board the rift-healing train.

Wonkette wrote:
     
    1,001 Pictures of My Double Turbo-Fingers

    Which Part of “He’s a Russian Puppet” Did You Dipsquats Not Understand?

    Suck It: A Guide to the Cocktails I Drink Now That I No Longer Have to Be Polite to Doucheschooners Like Chris Cillizza

    Eat It: A Recipe Book of Cookies I Never Baked and Never Fucking Will

    Seriously, Go Fuck Yourselves

    I Am Coming to Cram Feminism Into All of Your Video Games

    A Loser Cries What? How I Learned Everything about Football in One Month So I Could Infiltrate Sean Hannity’s Fantasy League and Spank Him Like the Infant He Is

    Also I Can Beat You at Pool

    His Go-to Karaoke Song Is Stacey Q’s “Two of Hearts”: All the Intelligence My State Department Gathered on Putin

    Any of You Jacksmacks Still Want to Talk about E-Mails?

    Have I Mentioned Go Fuck Yourselves? Because Go Fuck Yourselves

    Thoughts Had While Staring at Trey Gowdy’s Head for Eleven Hours

    Some Excellent Benghazi Questions You Bozos Never Even Thought Of, Presented with Answers, Charts and Footnotes

    How Headbands Work: Have None of You Dickwimples Ever Grown out Your Bangs?

    Oh, You Wealthy White Suburbanites Would Like a Leader Savvy Enough to Deal with Kim Jong-un Now? Good Luck with That, Pinot Breath

    Hillareading the Clues: A Series of Murder Mysteries Set in Washington, DC and Arkansas Just to Fuck with Your Heads

    Advanced Maintenance for Your Vintage Harley: You’re Goddamned Right I Can Do That Too

    Jesus Christ, Would it Have Killed You to Cover Trump’s Extensive RICO Network for 30 Seconds?

    Now That You Have Struck Me Down I Am More Powerful Than You Can Possibly Imagine

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:42 pm

Ducatista wrote:If you can't imagine ANY way . . .

Well, lack of imagination is one of my defining characteristics.
I mean, I earn my living selling used music and the closest thing to a creative outlet I have is singing in a cover band. I'm boring as fuck, in other words. I can barely imagine what I'm gonna have for dinner.

Ducatista wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Are there still new insights to glean from the last election cycle?

Yes. Hers.
I obviously haven't read her book (although I'd gladly read most of the ones in the Wonkette list) but I'll be surprised if someone can point me to an insight of hers in it that isn't exactly what I would expect her to say at this point. Would love to be surprised though!

Ducatista wrote: I crave resolution of all the times I wanted her to kick the podium over, smash her water glass against the upended podium, and slice off some insanely underqualified douchebag's ear.
Nothing stopping her from doing that now. If this was how she behaved moving forward -- and after all, why shouldn't she at this point? -- I'd gladly rescind my wish for her to please be quiet now. Because that would be pretty goddamn inspiring.

Ducatista wrote:I don't think for a second she embarked on this as a for-profit venture.

For the record, I don't think she did either. But I'm not exactly impressed that turning her loss into profit was apparently one of her first thoughts post-election. Just seems tacky to me. Admittedly I probably wouldn't feel that way if the current WH resident didn't view the Presidency as a for-profit gig, which obviously ain't Hillary's fault in the least.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Ducatista » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:47 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Nothing stopping her from doing that now. If this was how she behaved moving forward -- and after all, why shouldn't she at this point? -- I'd gladly rescind my wish for her to please be quiet now. Because that would be pretty goddamn inspiring.

Wouldn't it? A couple friends and I are going to see her in Milwaukee in November. I'll report back on any podium kicking. Double turbo-fingers crossed...

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby bdog » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:34 am

Amazon removes 1 star reviews from Clinton's book

If they do that they should have removed the 5 stars as well, or only included verified purchases.

I look at the 3 and 4 star reviews mostly.

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Re: "What happened" by Hillary

Postby Ducatista » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:36 am

Werd to the "shut up and go away" crowd: you understand the left has dog whistles, too, right? YOU may find nothing inspiring or valuable about Hillary Clinton base-and-drumming it, but there are people (generally younger and more X-chromosome-y than you) who will find much value and inspiration in messages you can't even hear.


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