Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

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rabble
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Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby rabble » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:10 am

Ain't no IED's gonna get in the way in Neenah Wisconsin.

Neenah’s police chief, Kevin E. Wilkinson, said he understood the concern. At first, he thought the anti-mine truck was too big. But the department’s old armored car could not withstand high-powered gunfire, he said.

“I don’t like it. I wish it were the way it was when I was a kid,” he said. But he said the possibility of violence, however remote, required taking precautions. “We’re not going to go out there as Officer Friendly with no body armor and just a handgun and say ‘Good enough.’ ”


All the better to evict you with, my dear.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby minicat » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:26 am

Jesus, Menasha better watch itself.

DCB
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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby DCB » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:29 am

Shit's gettin' serious. Rumor has it Kurt Russell has opted for the sequel "Escape from Neenah".

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:30 am

In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.

“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.


Sad commentary.

I don't see much issue with police forces having vehicles like this in reserve, as much as a I do with the decommissioned firearms that they have also received.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby kurt_w » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:54 am

Thanks to current events in Ferguson, MO, this topic is getting a lot more attention. Vox writes about it here:

Why the feds are putting grenade launchers in the hands of local cops

They point out that Neenah hasn't had a murder case in five years. Yet their police need a mine-proof, nine-foot high armored vehicle to keep the streets safe?

The New York Times article reports that the Pentagon has sent local police departments "tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft" over the past several years. But that's actually just scratching the surface of the military equipment that local police departments can get. [...]


Ridiculous.

Violent crime rates have been dropping for 20 years -- they're down nearly 50% since 1990. But increasingly, both law enforcement and civilians seem to be living in fear. Homeland-security types inside the government, and gun-nuts on the outside, are both telling their respective constituencies that they're facing some kind of threat that can only be kept at bay by acquiring more arms and ammunition.

I don't know why there's this strange fear infecting people, from local police departments to old guys hiding in their houses with loaded guns to keep themselves "safe". I can't help thinking that the media -- TV and internet -- is largely to blame. But how do you get people to just calm down and realize that they don't need to be armed to the teeth and living in fear?

rabble
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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby rabble » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:56 am

kurt_w wrote: But how do you get people to just calm down and realize that they don't need to be armed to the teeth and living in fear?

Say that in the wrong tavern and you could get yourself shot.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby Bwis53 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:09 am

My nasty little theory is, when people finally try to revolt, because they realized they've been fooled again and set up, it could be too late.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby kurt_w » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:59 am

kurt_w wrote:I don't know why there's this strange fear infecting people, from local police departments to old guys hiding in their houses with loaded guns to keep themselves "safe". I can't help thinking that the media -- TV and internet -- is largely to blame.


Case in point -- a sampling of the top 20 headlines on Yahoo news right now:

Police: Man strangled two after caught taking porno pictures

Man who beat girlfriend's three-year-old, then took vacation, faces sentencing

Kidnapped New Hampshire teen suffered 'unspeakable violence': lawyer

Hacker group claims to identify cop who shot Missouri teenager

Nigeria fears Ebola spread to east by infected nurse

Philly carjack suspect seeks forgiveness; 4 dead

Chicago mom found dead in suitcase in Bali; daughter, daughter's boyfriend arrested

Alleged idiot killer asked Siri to help him hide his roommate’s corpse

Comedy great Robin Williams hanged himself at home

Ukraine sets conditions for Russian convoy as death toll soars

Police chief says officer in Missouri shooting was injured

Man arrested with dying immigrants in trunk weeps in San Diego court

California man accused of stabbing to death parents, sons and dog


That's a majority of the headlines right now. Is it any wonder people wrongly believe the US, and the world at large, is awash in violence, terrorism, suicide, and plagues?

A lot of people manage to ignore the news. On the other hand, a lot of other people spend almost their whole day with some combination of cable news or talk radio running nonstop. Marinating your mind in this stuff can't be healthy.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:23 pm

kurt_w wrote:A lot of people manage to ignore the news. On the other hand, a lot of other people spend almost their whole day with some combination of cable news or talk radio running nonstop. Marinating your mind in this stuff can't be healthy.


I don't think ignoring the news is necessary, so much as realizing that there are billions of people on this planet and the vast majority of them are not showing up in the news for perpetrating violence against their fellow humans. Yes, there are terrible things going on in the world, and being ignorant of that fact won't make it better but if you actively believe that the world as a whole is a terrible place with danger at every corner, you are probably going to add to the problem.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:40 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:...if you actively believe that the world as a whole is a terrible place with danger at every corner, you are probably going to add to the problem.

Like Mr. Lock and Loaded.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby penquin » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:43 pm

Madison PD had their new armored vehicle on display for a kid's event at Monona Terrace a few weeks ago. The military-guy in me thought it was pretty cool, but the civilian-dude in me gets really sad and a little uptight about how armed our police force has become.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:06 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:...if you actively believe that the world as a whole is a terrible place with danger at every corner, you are probably going to add to the problem.

Like Mr. Lock and Loaded.


Is that D-man?

Well we were discussing people who get that view from the news, and that gentleman appears to have developed his worldview based on personal experiences.

He also seems to have done a good job of properly training himself so that he doesn't present a danger to society (unlike many gun owners). Which of course makes me wonder why you feel the need to attack this particular man and his world view? Perhaps you've been feeding your own fears from the news for too long?

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby jman111 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:14 pm

"I felt my life was in danger, and I was completely defenseless," he says. "I swore to myself I was not going to be defenseless ever again."

'Cuz everyone knows:
no gun = completely defenseless

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby Gentle Man » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:29 pm

kurt_w wrote:Ridiculous.

Violent crime rates have been dropping for 20 years -- they're down nearly 50% since 1990. But increasingly, both law enforcement and civilians seem to be living in fear. Homeland-security types inside the government, and gun-nuts on the outside, are both telling their respective constituencies that they're facing some kind of threat that can only be kept at bay by acquiring more arms and ammunition.

I don't know why there's this strange fear infecting people, from local police departments to old guys hiding in their houses with loaded guns to keep themselves "safe". I can't help thinking that the media -- TV and internet -- is largely to blame. But how do you get people to just calm down and realize that they don't need to be armed to the teeth and living in fear?


1. That Neenah hasn't had a murder investigation in 5 years is not very relevant to the question whether the police there should or should not have a large armored vehicle. I don't think they PD intended to use that vehicle for murder investigations. More relevant would be whether they have or may face situations involving standoffs with suspects who may be armed with rifles. Trust me, if you're the person who's dealing with that sort of mess you will want something more substantial than a Ford Crown Victoria between you and the suspect.

I don't think the police are loading up on this sort of equipment because they're afraid. They're doing it because the federal government is giving this shit away at little to no cost. Now small town police forces can have equipment that previously only very large cities could afford. Sure, an armed standoff is probably less frequent in Neenah compared to Los Angeles or Chicago, but when it happens the risks to the police officers are the same. Do you want to tell your small town officers their lives are less worth protecting than the LA officer's? "Sorry Mack, we could have had one of those big trucks from the Army too, but the Chief figured it would look bad rusting in the lot 364 days out of the year. So quit bitchin' and put on your vest and go get 'em!"

Believe it or not, sometimes even the Neenah police put their lives on the line to perform the dirty work the community hires them to do.

2. Also, I think your opinion that keeping a gun handy is indicative of a higher level of fear is wrong, and based on faulty analysis, or more likely no analysis.

A small percentage of people probably have a gun because they DO experience greater fear due to a specific threat or circumstances they're facing. But most people aren't facing any specific threats in their lives, sharing the same general threats as everyone. So why keep a gun handy when not facing a higher level of threat? Let me give you an anology.

When my son was about 2-years old, he was running through the house and stumbled into a table causing a nasty gash on his forehead. It was at this moment we realized we only had a box of regular band aids on hand. The band aids weren't that good at patching him up for the drive to get stitches. As a result, since that time I've always kept a large tool box packed with first aid materials including the sort of things I wish I had on hand that night: surgical pads, rolls of guaze bandages, tape. Is my fear of injuries occuring greater than it was before my kid's head was gashed? No! Is my fear that I'm not as prepared to handle such an injury reduced? You betcha! If anything, my large first aid kit indicates that I live with less fear, not more.

You can apply the same analysis to keeping a gun around. I don't believe I face any greater threat of criminal activity than the average person faces. But like accidental injuries in the home, I recognize that a general threat of crime is always present. The gun, among other things, makes me better prepared in the event that it does happen. Consequently, I live with less fear in my life because I know with the gun I have more options available to me than if I didn't have a gun. More options means a better chance of a satisfactory outcome. You may believe the gun I keep on me is a sign of enhanced fear. But my fear of being a victim of crime is probably about the same as yours. My fear of whether I would be able to respond effectively to a criminal is probably notably less because, like my first aid kit, I have the ability to effectively handle a wider range of situations. If we're faced by 3 attackers, you could run, so could I. What if there's no way out? Well, you could choose to submit to a beating or be killed, or choose to duke it out. I could choose those things too. But, I have another option that you don't.

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Re: Neenah gets itself a 30 ton armored combat vehicle

Postby jman111 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:42 pm

Dman wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

When he wants to downplay the danger posed by firearms, he stresses the damage that can be inflicted with a vehicle. But when when he's driving a vehicle and isn't packing, he claims he's "completely defenseless".


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