Smells like ... freedom

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
kurt_w
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Smells like ... freedom

Postby kurt_w » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:13 am

300,000 people are on their third day without clean water in West Virginia, thanks to a chemical spill at a storage facility owned by Freedom Industries upstream from Charleston's water treatment plant.

As much as 5,000 gallons (18,927 liters) of industrial chemical 4-methylcyclohexane methanol, or Crude MCHM, leaked into the river on Thursday, Governor Earl Ray Tomblin told CNN.

He declared a state of emergency for nine counties on Friday, and President Barack Obama issued an emergency declaration. The spill forced schools and businesses to close in Charleston, West Virginia's largest city.


Stores are rapidly running out of bottled water and local residents are leaving.

That's "Freedom" for you! You can thank the coal industry, West Virginia.

DCB
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby DCB » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:07 pm

The real problem are the socialist policies that make you dependent on free stuff from the government like 'air' and 'water'. Now the people of West Virginia can transition to free-market water!

It truly is a blessing.

Steve Vokers
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Steve Vokers » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:44 pm

DCB wrote:The real problem are the socialist policies that make you dependent on free stuff from the government like 'air' and 'water'. Now the people of West Virginia can transition to free-market water!

It truly is a blessing.


Damn straight. And they'll learn a valuable lesson about supply and demand when the corner store starts charging $50 for them big jugs of water that normally sell for $5.

Henry Vilas
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:50 pm

Where is Arturo to defend the libertarian approach?

ArturoBandini
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby ArturoBandini » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:28 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Where is Arturo to defend the libertarian approach?

What exactly do you expect me to defend here? Do you really believe that libertarians think it is OK to dump poison into rivers?

This one really isn't that hard. The water company and any affected parties should sue the chemical company until they are made whole or the company is dried up. Residents might consider suing the water company for not having adequate protections or sensing capabilities to stop the intake of the contaminated water.

And what exactly is the alternative here? Are you proposing that in your ideal society, there just wouldn't be accidents? Or there wouldn't be chemical companies? Other than the coincidental name of the chemical company, what makes this case seem (to you) like a case study in why libertarianism, or freedom more generally, fails?

Also, I don't live in Madison anymore, so I don't post much. I happened to be browsing the board tonight, but I haven't been keeping up in general. If there are any other threads I would like (you know the type of thing I would like), please do tell.

Mad Howler
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Mad Howler » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:50 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:What exactly do you expect me to defend here? Do you really believe that libertarians think it is OK to dump poison into rivers?

Nope, and interestingly this professor is embracing the 'libertarian' rabble rouser of this moment.
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/2 ... ommon-good
What is good, should be seen as such.
What is deplorable...

snoqueen
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:59 pm

All that's lovely, but

-- what if victims are too impoverished to get a great law firm on the job against a well financed adversary? These industry guys are pros at just filing so many procedural motions their opposition runs out of money, while leveraging political pressure behind the scenes. Look at Madison Kipp for an example, one that had a better outcome than many after years of stalling.

-- wouldn't prevention be better for everyone's health and well being than lawsuits after the fact? And since experience shows the industries resist being regulated (present case being only one example), why do you think the threat of a lawsuit would make them more environmentally responsible? This company already managed to get the regulators to let them store this chemical right next to a waterway, for instance. I'm sure they figured lawsuits into their projected costs and thought it was worth the risk.

Not all environmental disasters can be remediated, either. Prevention annoys the industry, but provides the best chance of keeping things somewhat safe and clean for people who will live nearby in the future.

Another case in point -- Massey mining disaster, WV. Loss of life on that one, not just expense. This is not the optimal way to run an industry or a state. You have to get ahead of things.

Absolutely do not tell us the miners, or the water-drinkers, should just move somewhere else. That's a joke.

All that said, it's nice to know Artie is alive and well. No hard feelings toward our former resident contrarian.

Mad Howler
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Mad Howler » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:13 pm

snoqueen wrote:-- what if victims are too impoverished to get a great law firm on the job against a well financed adversary?

Yes.
This has always been a problem,
It is ever more so now.
This age of the dollar is frightening.

Rich Schultz
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Rich Schultz » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:50 pm

"According to NBC, who spoke to the state Department of Environmental Protection, Freedom Industries is exempt from DEP inspection because it only stores chemicals and does not produce them, despite the Freedom Industries' claiming on its website that it is producer. Whether the Etowah River Terminal facility does produce chemicals or is only a storage facility is unclear."

"Governor Earl Ray Tomblin has responded by saying he will work on tightening regulation on chemical storage facilities."
http://www.ibtimes.com/freedom-industries-meet-chemical-provider-center-west-virginia-chemical-spill-1536036

"At the state level, West Virginia's politics are largely dominated by the Democratic Party, with Democrats currently holding the governorship, both senate seats and both houses of the state legislature. This is a legacy of West Virginia's very strong tradition of union membership."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia

Mad Howler
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Mad Howler » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:06 am

Rich Schultz wrote:"According to NBC, who spoke to the state Department of Environmental Protection, Freedom Industries is exempt from DEP inspection because it only stores chemicals and does not produce them, despite the Freedom Industries' claiming on its website that it is producer. Whether the Etowah River Terminal facility does produce chemicals or is only a storage facility is unclear."

"Governor Earl Ray Tomblin has responded by saying he will work on tightening regulation on chemical storage facilities."
http://www.ibtimes.com/freedom-industries-meet-chemical-provider-center-west-virginia-chemical-spill-1536036

"At the state level, West Virginia's politics are largely dominated by the Democratic Party, with Democrats currently holding the governorship, both senate seats and both houses of the state legislature. This is a legacy of West Virginia's very strong tradition of union membership."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia

Nice of you to begin getting your head around how corporate types are entangled in governance. This is bad.
What you are not offering is a different option,
Other than cart blank to the corrupted who seek passage around the current and corrupted middlemen.
If you are suggesting otherwise - please show your work.

Rich Schultz
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Rich Schultz » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:18 am

How about we show the work of the people who's work it was?

Image

This brilliant site location for chemical storage and/or production was approved by local and state agencies and inspected once in 1991.

Mad Howler
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Mad Howler » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:56 am

Rich Schultz wrote:How about we show the work of the people who's work it was?

Indeed
http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/01/12/ko ... inia-river

Obviously this mischief must be 'managed'...
http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/17 ... ations.%29

Hey Dick, why do I get the idea that your heart is not in the 'right' place?

ArturoBandini
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:46 am

Rich Schultz wrote:This brilliant site location for chemical storage and/or production was approved by local and state agencies and inspected once in 1991.
You must be too brilliant to realize that industrial chemical facilities are often located directly on waterways so that barges can load and unload at the site. Power plants, refineries, steel mills, and bulk goods stockpiles are also located on waterways for the same reason, also posing potential safety hazards. The benefits outweigh the hazards.

Henry Vilas
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:43 am

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Where is Arturo to defend the libertarian approach?

What exactly do you expect me to defend here? Do you really believe that libertarians think it is OK to dump poison into rivers?

This one really isn't that hard. The water company and any affected parties should sue the chemical company until they are made whole or the company is dried up. Residents might consider suing the water company for not having adequate protections or sensing capabilities to stop the intake of the contaminated water.

And what exactly is the alternative here? Are you proposing that in your ideal society, there just wouldn't be accidents? Or there wouldn't be chemical companies? Other than the coincidental name of the chemical company, what makes this case seem (to you) like a case study in why libertarianism, or freedom more generally, fails?

Also, I don't live in Madison anymore, so I don't post much. I happened to be browsing the board tonight, but I haven't been keeping up in general. If there are any other threads I would like (you know the type of thing I would like), please do tell.

So you don't like government regulations that might prevent such disasters, rather you want the dispute to go to civil court after the fact. That's closing the barn door after the horse escapes.

DCB
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Re: Smells like ... freedom

Postby DCB » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:25 am

Interesting that RichS supports greater environmental controls and less corporate money corrupting politics. The Democratic wing of the the Democratic party welcomes him with open arms!


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