How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

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bdog
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How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby bdog » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:47 pm


penquin
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby penquin » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:10 pm

If it really ain't that big of a deal then would you mind getting a permit for 'em? Would be a nice gesture, no?

Tho, you might wanna read Article II, Part E of what you're agreeing to first...given the Governor's tendency to overreact you could easily be on the hook for a hefty sum of $$$.

other i
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby other i » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:56 pm

That's a pretty complicated document. Who decides what a "counter rally" is? What if each participant at a rally is a really a counter rally participant? What if one is only 90 degrees in opposition to the permitted rally, rather than 180? Is that a counter rally or a co-rally? Can you be charged for law enforcement costs for a co-rally? What if the solidarity singers got a permit and the black block showed up and starting sticking tape on the marble pillars and incurring millions of dollars in sticky damage? Would they be a counter rally or would the Singers have to pay?

bdog
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby bdog » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:48 am

Good point penquin. I think this answers the question of why they don't get a permit. Most of the SS are peaceful people, there to sing a few songs and leave.

But there is small fraction likes Miles Kristan that could go off and do something stupid / criminal at any time. If that happens, SS as a group would not be liable, whereas if they had a permit they would be.

I think they are pretty damn smart not to have a permit.

It's actually win/win for both sides if Kristan keeps getting on camera.

HawkHead
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby HawkHead » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:54 am

bdog wrote:Good point penquin. I think this answers the question of why they don't get a permit. Most of the SS are peaceful people, there to sing a few songs and leave.

But there is small fraction likes Miles Kristan that could go off and do something stupid / criminal at any time. If that happens, SS as a group would not be liable, whereas if they had a permit they would be.

I think they are pretty damn smart not to have a permit.

It's actually win/win for both sides if Kristan keeps getting on camera.


No it doesn't answer the question at all. The don't get a permit because they aren't required to get one to address their grievances to their government.

This isn't a liability issue. It's a constitutional one.

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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby peripat » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:22 am

Amazing how many Americans want to toss out the constitution and the bill of rights- I don't think there will be a USA in a hundred years- maybe not in fifty, but for now we still have the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Of course I suppose what passes for state government now figures they are allowed to do the above; suppress the rights of assembly, to petition, to free speech, press, and even to establish a state religion.

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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:29 am

While the courts have ruled that some time, place and matter restrictions can be placed on free speech, those rules must conform to certain standards.

The following is a good summation of those rules:

1.The regulation must be content neutral. As an example, if cities allow newspapers to be distributed on city sidewalks, they may not forbid other kinds of news materials. If a city allows handbills to be distributed for one point of view, they may not disallow handbills for other points of view.

2.The regulation must serve a substantial government interest, and the government must explicity demonstrate this interest. As an example, cities may have a substantial interest in a safe and orderly flow of traffic on busy street corners. Thus, they may not allow vendors to sell papers at busy intersections. Where this rule gets "dicey" is when police stop public gathers because of the "fear of violence." In cases like these, the courts have held that there must be evidence of immenent lawless action.

3.There cannot be a total prohibition on communication. There must be other alternative means for a communicator to present their information. As an example, state college campuses are catagorized as a designated public forum. This means that universities are justified in imposing some time, place and manner restrictions. Thus many campuses create free speech zones where people can say pretty much anything they want.

4.The rules may not be any broader than necessary to serve the government interest. The courts call this "narrow tailoring." For instance, if a city were concerned about newspapers with suggestive personal advertisements it could not ban the sale of all newspapers, or all advertising as a means of combating the problem.

bdog
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby bdog » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:34 am

It's hardly "want" to toss out, but it is inevitable.

I'd bet a lot of countries think it's cute that Americans think freedom is some kind of God given right. Our freedoms were built on some hugely assholish actions.

We live in a bubble that is going to break. It was always going to break.

Just saw another news reel:

SEGWAY JEREMY RYAN IS ALIVE !!!!!!

Henry Vilas
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:59 am

Furthermore, the courts have ruled that political speech has the greatest protection, followed by ordinary speech, while commercial speech has the least. Thus the Solidarity Singers rights out trump those of the Christmas caroller at the Capitol.

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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby gargantua » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:56 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Furthermore, the courts have ruled that political speech has the greatest protection, followed by ordinary speech, while commercial speech has the least. Thus the Solidarity Singers rights out trump those of the Christmas caroller at the Capitol.

Given that, it's pretty ironic that the effectiveness of the types of speech seems to reverse that order.

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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby david cohen » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:10 pm

Plus if the SS ever applied for a permit, they would be tacitly agreeing that they are a "group". In fact, they are individuals who choose to show up and sing.

penquin
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby penquin » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:21 am

bdog wrote:But there is small fraction likes Miles Kristan that could go off and do something stupid / criminal at any time.


I'm not up-to-date with all the names&faces. Is that the guy who spit on one of the singers?

That aside, the local media keeps reporting the claim made by the WalkerAdmin and his supporters that there are "no costs" to acquire a permit...but they don't mention that fees can be added on after the event, at the sole discretion of the WalkerAdmin, and that there is no appeal process in place for whatever amount the Gov's office later decides to charge.


Why isn't that additional factoid being reported?

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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby david cohen » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:17 pm

Perhaps the Walker administration is hoping to balance the budget on the permit fees of the SS;)?

other i
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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby other i » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:26 am

I'd like to propose a permitting system for [fill in the blank]. We'd make it REALLY easy to get the permit, which, in itself, is a justification for having [fill in the blank] only allowed if you've gotten a permit.

But also note that, if a whole lot of people engage in [fill in the blank] it can cause disruption. In extreme cases if millions of people participate in [fill in the blank] it could require police planning to manage the consequences.

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Re: How to get a permit to gather at the Capitol

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:36 am

david cohen wrote:Plus if the SS ever applied for a permit, they would be tacitly agreeing that they are a "group". In fact, they are individuals who choose to show up and sing.


I would guess they (Dept of Admin or the Capitol Police) spent enough time videotaping and taking pictures of the non-group members to make a pretty compelling argument that a set of people who meet at a regularly scheduled time with fairly regular attendance to take part in a shared activity probably meet the legal requirement of being a group for the purpose of permiting.


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