Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

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Bad Gradger
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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby Bad Gradger » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:18 am

ArturoBandini wrote:Thanks, Bad Gradger, and thanks, quantum physics.

But wait - that WiFi router has a green LED on it blinking all the time! Your link says those photons have 240,000 times more energy than the WiFi/cell/phone photons! Dogs and humans aren't designed to absorb green light like plants.

Lucky for you, then, the ability of electromagnetic radiation to damage your DNA depends on energy, not on quantity. A billion photons carrying the WORT signal could impact a strand of your DNA and it'd be none the worse for wear, but a single gamma photon from space can turn that DNA into a leukemia factory. Quantity comes into play in deciding just how many zillion times you want to play the odds; the energies of the individual photons don't stack. So you're safe from the LEDs around you.

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:46 am

Bad Gradger, I guess my sarcasm wasn't applied obviously enough. :roll: But just to be sure, I've got my tinfoil hat ready for anytime I'm surfing the wireless internet.

Bad Gradger
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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby Bad Gradger » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:56 am

ArturoBandini wrote:Bad Gradger, I guess my sarcasm wasn't applied obviously enough. :roll: But just to be sure, I've got my tinfoil hat ready for anytime I'm surfing the wireless internet.

If yours wasn't obvious enough, then mine is so dry it belongs in Death Valley.

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby c02 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:12 am

Take away the 20 year blood lust, lack of social skills, and general shortcomings of an otherwise civilized human and suddenly Ted Kaczynski begins appearing almost sane in the context of this thread.

kurt_w
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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby kurt_w » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:11 am

Ah, a thread about math and physics ... I like it!

wallrock wrote:WiFi does not emit a high level of RF, or at least not high compared to other wireless devices. A typical router emits a signal of 100 mW, compared with a 3G UMTS phone's max power output of 2W. An approximate generalization that I've heard bandied about is a full day in proximity to a WiFi router is the equivalent of a 20-minute cell phone call.


Let's go with those figures, which suggest that your wireless router is typically transmitting 1/20th of the maximum power of your cell phone (100 mW vs. 2 W).

The intensity of an electromagnetic field dissipates proportionately to the square of the distance from the transmitter. For the cell phone, let's assume that it's normally at a distance of 1 cm. For the router ... let's assume that it's at an average distance of 4 m (~12 feet) -- perhaps you live in a small apartment, or you have a router near your desk at work.

Thanks to the lower power of the router's signal, and its greater distance from your body, its effective intensity is only 0.00003125% as great as the cell phone's. In other words, the radiation you receive in one year from your router is equivalent to the radiation from one 10-second cell phone call.

Of course, this is just normal household transmitters. If you're near a cell phone tower, a radio repeater, or some other high-powered RF source, you'll be exposed to more intense radiation from that than any of your wireless devices.

Bad Gradger wrote:Lucky for you, then, the ability of electromagnetic radiation to damage your DNA depends on energy, not on quantity.


Yes, the energy content of a photon is directly proportionate to its frequency; high-frequency signals (UV, X-rays) are many orders of magnitude more energetic than radio frequencies. However, within the radio spectrum there is some funny stuff whereby the body's absorption of radiation is nonlinear -- it peaks around 60-80 MHz, and there are relatively strict standards for exposure over the range 30-300 MHz.

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby kurt_w » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:25 am

Dogs and humans aren't designed to absorb green light like plants.


Actually, if you're wanting to feed photons to your plants, use a blue or red LED, not a green one. Chlorophyll doesn't absorb as much green light ... that's why plants look green to us (we're seeing the reflected light that isn't absorbed).

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby narcoleptish » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Hey, the condescension express has pulled into the station. I knew you'd show up sooner or later, and you even threw in a tin hat joke. I guess we shouldn't expect critical, and original, thinking, at the same time.

Anyway I digress... I unflinchingly defer to you guys on the subject of physics, and I, possibly more than anyone, hope the arguments and statements in your posts are correct and true. I guess my worries stem more from lack of trust of the industry than from the known laws of physics (as they are explained to me).

My questions are many:

What are the chances that tested equipment matches the output of all equipment?
Who funds the studies?
If a phone can be made a little cheaper, but with questionable emission levels, will a Chinese factory build it? (That's an easy one)
What are the range of tolerances in different human beings and animals?
Why did the Verizon guys install a powerful antenna right next to a public patio on my friend's building?
What are the chances of a new "disability" popping up over all of this in the next few years? They could call it SAR Syndrome. "Geez doc, my SAR syndrome is really bringing out my fibromyalgia."
What are the chances that big business would lie to us?

How many people trust big oil? Big banking? Halliburton, Bechtel, the defense industry and the like? The richest guy in the world right now isn't Gates or Buffett, it's the Mexican cell phone king. Wireless communications.....all the profits of oil, without all the greasy mess.

But like I said, I want to believe that you guys are right. I'll still limit my cell phone use and error on the side of caution and if that makes me a tin hat wack job, then so be it. Glad I could give you guys a chance to lay some knowledge on us. If I'm ever at your house fixing a storm door or changing a light switch I promise not to question your manhood.

There may have been some sarcasm in this post.

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby snoqueen » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:19 pm

A while ago there was lots of concern about what microwaves (the kitchen appliance) were doing to our health. That seems to have dissipated. Before then, it was high voltage power lines. You don't hear about those much these days either.

This does NOT mean anyone demonstrated microwaves and power lines are safe. Mostly, it means nobody wanted to fund the research.

Same with cell phones.

All this stuff gives me the creeps too, and I am not expecting clarity any time soon. It took almost 40 years to get public acceptance of the fact cigarette smoke causes (OK, "is associated with") lung cancer, for crying out loud.

Still, certain other countries may be less corrupt with regard to the influence of industry on governmental bodies responsible for setting safety standards. Some documentation is available on the internet, though for a lot of countries it's not translated into English. Here's a page from the Canadian government about cell phone radiation:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/prod/cell-eng.php

About halfway down it says precautions to limit public exposure to RF energy from base stations (wifi, I suppose) are unnecessary. Make of that what you will.

I'm not imagining Canada is perfectly uncorrupted, but it's got to be better than the US. I've tried to research other safety issues this way before (drug safety, environmental safety) with mixed but interesting results.

For what it's worth, narcoleptish, I had dogs die of cancer since the early 80s, long before anybody had wifi. I always thought it had to do with them running through pesticided lawns and licking their feet clean. A vet pointed out to me that was not impossible, but different dog cancers might have very different causes.

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby narcoleptish » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:20 am

The dog/cancer/wifi thing just dawned on me as I was writing that post, and I threw it in. One of those thoughts that crosses your mind and makes you momentarily sick. No, wifi probably didn't kill my dog.

Human beings have such a long record of fucking with nature and altering the environment for our own convenience, that I can't help but expect the worst. How many things that we've added to the environment can be said to be truly harmless?

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:55 pm

For what it's worth:
Cancer is a man-made disease, controversial study claims

The rarity of cancer in mummies suggests it was scarce in antiquity, and "that cancer-causing factors are limited to societies affected by modern industrialization."

There are some good reasons in the article why this might not be the case, but I won't quote the whole thing.

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby green union terrace chair » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:01 pm

ilikebeans wrote:For what it's worth:
Cancer is a man-made disease, controversial study claims

The rarity of cancer in mummies suggests it was scarce in antiquity, and "that cancer-causing factors are limited to societies affected by modern industrialization."

There are some good reasons in the article why this might not be the case, but I won't quote the whole thing.


Wow that is a terrible article. They include but seemingly refute the far more likely analysis:

"Cancer is very rare in modern societies in humans under age 30," oncologist Dr. John Glaspy at UCLA's Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center told LiveScience. "In ancient times, people rarely lived to be much older than that. So cancer was rare. The 'sin' of modern societies is having people live to be much older."

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby Bwis53 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:01 pm

And here I thought it was a virus...

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Re: Wifi and cellular signals killing our trees

Postby Beaver » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:04 pm

Putting a cell phone tower near a school was recently stopped by a local group. The Feb 24 Isthmus had an editorial referring to these books so I looked them up:

"Cross Currents" by Robert O. Becker

http://www.amazon.com/Cross-Currents-Ro ... 0874776090
"he reviews the potential dangers of electromagnetic fields from such sources as common household appliances, power lines, and computers--risks exhaustively exposed in Paul Brodeur's Currents of Death ( LJ 10/1/89)...and warns that our bodies are being adversely affected by power lines, computers, microwaves and satellite dishes.."

http://www.theseekerbooks.com/articles/electric.htm
"In fact, military radar operators DO have a higher incidence of cancer. People living near radio towers were found to have more incidence of leukemia. Studies have shown that men whose occupation exposes them to electromagnetic fields not only were at risk themselves, but so were their children, indicating genetic damage. There are other sinister effects as well."

http://www.silvermedicine.org/robertobecker.html
"This document highlights the scientific research of Dr. Robert Becker. Dr. Becker successfully proved the tissue healing properties of silver ions through laboratory studies and in-body experimentation. Author of Body Electric and Cross Currents, Becker has more than 30 years of medical research experience."


"Disconnect: The Truth About Cell Phone Radiation, What the Industry Has Done to Hide It, and How to Protect Your Family"

http://www.amazon.com/Disconnect-Radiat ... 0525951946
"the most popular gadget of our age has now been shown to damage DNA, break down the brain's defenses, and reduce sperm count while increasing memory loss, the risk of Alzheimer's disease, and even cancer. The growing brains of children make them especially vulnerable."


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