new bike-car question

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it fits here
dave esmond
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2569
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby dave esmond » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:23 pm

Kenneth Burns wrote:Out of date except she writes a column three times a week!



I meant mine Ken.

Manners and all that.

Swing and a miss for me.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 13820
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: new bike-car question

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:26 pm

...it pisses me off to no end when a driver, especially on a multi-lane street, stops and waves me into traffic when I'm waiting to cross. Not only is that illegal (in spite of the fact that the cops do it here constantly), it's incredibly stupid and dangerous. It's not courteous, it's sanctimonious, which leads to a lot of conflict with those drivers who insist on being "helpful" even after being waved past, many of whom resort to swearing and insults to those they were trying to "help" just a few seconds before. That's how you know it's really all about them and has nothing to do with ped safety.


This is the gist of the whole disagreement, if you ask me. Bikers do it too, just like the guy I described at the top of this thread. It's road rage at a very personal level and they can snap into it instantaneously the moment the world doesn't do what they want it to do. Maybe they drive around in a state of irritability, almost waiting for something to trip their trigger. No, it's got nothing to do with real safety considerations.

And for the rest of us, it becomes a test of non-reactiveness. We who just want to get where we're going safely and without hurting anybody else need to back way off. I mean mentally, not behaviorally. This is going to take self-discipline, but the alternative is endless stupid and dangerous road disagreements. We just have to turn off all judgment, realize it's the other person's issue and we don't have to buy into it, and then make our best choice on behalf of our own well-being.

I think allowing the enraged person a chance to save face is part of it, and the only thing I've come up with for that is the take-out-my-phone thing. "Oh, she's got a call. OK." But some people just want to be mad regardless.

Given that people here have described situations -- as drivers, pedestrians, and bikers -- where they were unquestionably acting reasonably and they still got blasted with ill-will, rules are unlikely to put much of a dent in the problem. When I started the topic I was hoping someone would come up with some better rule or hierarchy of rules.

Better rules might help (as in the mystery of what to do on the eastbound bike path intersections) but in the long run I'm now thinking we can't legislate sanity so we need to learn to let the crazy slide and take care of #1.

This has been educational reading.

Ducatista
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 4706
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:31 pm
Location: 53703

Re: new bike-car question

Postby Ducatista » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:25 pm

snoqueen wrote:We who just want to get where we're going safely and without hurting anybody else need to back way off. I mean mentally, not behaviorally. This is going to take self-discipline, but the alternative is endless stupid and dangerous road disagreements.

Eh, doesn't take much discipline, at least it didn't for me.

I like to be irritated, and even I got positive reinforcement from my very first smile-wave-&-proceed interaction. No fuss, no stress, no delay. No sweat. (As long as you don't walk or bike beyond the stopped car until you've made certain the rest of the road is clear. That's key.)

Jademan7
Forum Addict
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:50 pm
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby Jademan7 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:45 am

Whether I'm on a bike or in my car, I treat the bike trail as another road. When the bike trail has a stop sign and my road doesn't, I keep going. Other vehicles are not expecting someone to stop in the middle of the road. I couldn't imaging driving up to an intersection where the side road has a stop sign and stopping in the middle of the road to let a car at a stop sign go through. When I'm on my bike it's the same way. I stop until all the crossing is clear. There have been times with angry people on the bike trail when I'm stopped whizzing past me only to have a near miss or have to slam on their brakes for the second lane of traffic.

dave esmond
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2569
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby dave esmond » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:27 am

Ducatista wrote:I like to be irritated, and even I got positive reinforcement from my very first smile-wave-&-proceed interaction. No fuss, no stress, no delay. No sweat.


During my ride home last night and in this morning three times I was stopped at a stop sign and a car stopped for me.

So. I honestly pictured Jason in the car and just went. Since what bothers me the most is there's no reason for both of us to be stopped I decided I'll take the reins and get moving. Still can't wave and smile since I still think the driver is wrong, but what the hell, at least one of us was moving.

Maybe I'll get to a no fuss and no stress place someday. It's pretty obvious the drivers who are stopping are gonna keep on doing it. Even biker rider Sno couldn't convince car driver Sno to act the way biker rider Sno wishes she would. Why fight it?

And it was hardly the stupidest or most dangerous thing I saw on either ride.

wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby wack wack » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:43 am

Jademan7 wrote:I couldn't imaging driving up to an intersection where the side road has a stop sign and stopping in the middle of the road to let a car at a stop sign go through.


How about when the car isn't stopped, but is approaching from your right or left and it is clear that they are not going to stop at the sign?

It's happened several times with cars and an innumerable number of times with bikes in my 10 years in Madison.

Frustrating, perhaps, but to suggest that drivers are silly or stupid for being cautious is not reasonable.

DCB
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3742
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: new bike-car question

Postby DCB » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:07 am

I start with the admittedly tenuous assumption that everyone is following the rules of the road. In tricky situations, like unsignaled 4-way intersections (of any kind), I try to determine whether that assumption holds, and react accordingly. Slowing down, at least a little, helps.

Its a relief to know there are others, like Dave and Ken, who share my feeling that this "yielding arbitrarily" business is annoying.

dave esmond
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2569
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby dave esmond » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:23 am

wack wack wrote:
Jademan7 wrote:I couldn't imaging driving up to an intersection where the side road has a stop sign and stopping in the middle of the road to let a car at a stop sign go through.


How about when the car isn't stopped, but is approaching from your right or left and it is clear that they are not going to stop at the sign?

It's happened several times with cars and an innumerable number of times with bikes in my 10 years in Madison.

Frustrating, perhaps, but to suggest that drivers are silly or stupid for being cautious is not reasonable.


Yep. In that case be cautious. Not silly or stupid at all.

Except we're talking about a situation where the bike rider or car HAS stopped. Hopefully drivers can handle both situations and react differently.

Being overly cautious is stupid. If the car or bike is stopped and not moving you're being overly cautious if you stop also.

In the three cases in my last two rides I was fully stopped with my feet down. Not doing a slow roll. Not doing a track stand. STOPPED. There was nothing to be cautious about...I was stopped. So there we sat. Neither of us moving. That's stupid.

wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby wack wack » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:30 am

dave esmond wrote:Except we're talking about a situation where the bike rider or car HAS stopped...

In the three cases in my last two rides I was fully stopped with my feet down. Not doing a slow roll. Not doing a track stand. STOPPED. There was nothing to be cautious about...I was stopped. So there we sat. Neither of us moving. That's stupid.


Fair enough; I'm quite sure I've never crossed your path. Can't remember the last time I encountered a bicyclist with both feet firmly planted on the ground at a stop sign. They're usually either one foot down and one on the pedal, hunched slightly forward in what seems to be a "launch" position (is that a track stand?), or they're dancing back and forth from foot to foot as if they're going to wet themselves if they don't get going right NOW.

I understand your point; I hope you can understand my suspicion even of those with both feet on the ground.

dave esmond
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2569
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby dave esmond » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:39 am

wack wack wrote:I understand your point; I hope you can understand my suspicion even of those with both feet on the ground.


Honestly? No I don't understand it. By the time most people could get moving from that position you'll be past them. But I've come to except it.


I did have a perfect interaction this morning also. I'm coming up on stop sign. Car in cross street started to slow, since I'm fully aware not all bike riders stop. He was being rightly cautious. Then I stopped ...and he sped up a little and went past. Tada. Reacting to the changing situation in front of him. Not to what might happen, Not to what happened in the past But to what was happening now. Imagine that.

We even smiled at each other as he drove past.

Endo Rockstar
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:16 pm
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby Endo Rockstar » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:44 am

The car stopping when they don't have a stop sign thing falls into the category of a person not driving in a predicable fashion. Driving or riding in this manner pisses everyone off.

In defense of the drivers like Sno who do this, its a learned behavior, if you have one or two bikers fly across your path, even when you're in the right, you don't want to take the chance of killing someone and having it on your conscience for the rest of your life -- I get it, so I do my best not to judge.

The same thing happens around tournament time here in the winter. We have an influx of pedestrians downtown who don't walk, move, or act like our normal student peds. --they suck, they stand at the edge of an intersection with the walk sign on as you're trying to make a right turn once they cross. Instead they notice you waiting to turn and get flustered, step back, and avoid eye contact -- "The Madison Standoff"

-Dan Motor

wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby wack wack » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:19 am

dave esmond wrote:
wack wack wrote:I understand your point; I hope you can understand my suspicion even of those with both feet on the ground.


Honestly? No I don't understand it. By the time most people could get moving from that position you'll be past them. But I've come to except it.


If my suspicion is unwarranted then I will lose it.

dave esmond
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2569
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby dave esmond » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:29 am

wack wack wrote:If my suspicion is unwarranted then I will lose it.


That's really all one can hope for. Let us know the next time a stopped bike rider takes off in front of you. I'm certainly not saying it won't happen. I see plenty of jackassedness on my ride everyday. But if it doesn't happen I hope that might change your perspective also.

I can't do anything about the riders who don't stop. I just hope that doesn't cloud your impression of all riders too much. Same way I don't understand riders who let a few bad run ins with drivers cloud their expectations of all drivers.

Bottom line really is everyone needs to pay attention to the situation unfolding in front of them.

Remember_Me
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1221
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: About town.
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby Remember_Me » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:53 pm

If only we could get the whole city to stay inside more on their computers bitching about this, problem solved.

Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 6073
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm
Contact:

Re: new bike-car question

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:04 pm

I think more people need to learn track stands. That will really make things confusing for drivers.


Return to “Catch All”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests