Cultural Insensitivity

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kurt_w
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:24 am

Heh. Now this is all screwed up. You posted while I was composing my comment. Then I edited my comment while you were responding to it. What a mess.

Stu Levitan
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby Stu Levitan » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:56 am

bdog wrote:Why is it ok to hate Catholics for their actions but not Jews? Because they have that phrase "anti-semitic". Catholics should get a bullet proof phrase like that.

All religion (and especially rituals) is just training wheels for spirituality. It's meant for little kids. You look like an idiot using them as an adult.


Yeah, how could I have been so wrong as to find anti-Semitism in this thread. Bdog just wants society's permission to hate Jews! Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Galoot
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby Galoot » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:03 am

You sure missed the point entirely on that one, Stu.

The issue is what position government, whether it be local, state, or federal, takes regarding respecting various religious holy days. It is a clear issue of church/state separation.

And just as SCOTUS has seen Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists as a clear statement by one of the Founders as to the scope and intention of the 1st amendment's religious clauses, we can see this action by the Founders regarding the USPS as a clear statement of what they intended regarding our issue in question.

The calendar that someone posted shows the reductio ad absurdum that results if you want the city to respect all religious holidays--no meeting could happen, ever, because some religion would have that day as a holy day.

O.J.
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby O.J. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:18 am

Stu, you still haven't explained how the TRC event prevented any Catholics from attending. Do you think you owe them an apology? I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if anyone falsely accused the Landmarks Commission of malfeasance.

Meade
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby Meade » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:21 am

Galoot wrote:You sure missed the point entirely on that one, Stu.

I agree. Plus, Stu keeps going along with the jacking of his own thread.
Galoot wrote:The issue is what position government, whether it be local, state, or federal, takes regarding respecting various religious holy days. It is a clear issue of church/state separation.

No, the issue is not what the position of government is. That could be an interesting discussion but it is not this topic of discussion and it's a diversion from the issue here which is that the Marquette Neighborhood Association and the Tenant Resource Center each scheduled events at two of the few times observant Jews would be excluded. If it was intentional, it's Jew-hate. If it was unintentional, it was culturally insensitive.

O.J.
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby O.J. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:30 am

Meade wrote: the Marquette Neighborhood Association and the Tenant Resource Center each scheduled events at two of the few times observant Jews would be excluded. If it was intentional, it's Jew-hate. If it was unintentional, it was culturally insensitive.


Jews don't observe Good Friday, Larry. It certainly didn't prevent Stu from attending the event.

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby Meade » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:34 am

Dusk to dusk, O.J. And how are you so sure Stu attended the event?

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby O.J. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:39 am

Stu Levitan wrote: Mr. Thornton came to the Tenant Resource Center "Iron Chef" fundraiser last night at the Brink. Ate by himself, sitting alone at the bar. Didn't stay long.


That certainly looks like a first person account to me.

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby Stu Levitan » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:59 am

I attended the TRC event because I support the organization. I was unable to eat many of the selections because of dietary restrictions during the holiday, but that was no big whoop; I don't expect secular organizations to care that deep into the holiday. (Although I was disappointed that the only food available at the closing of the Library event last year was pulled pork). I did talk to two Catholics there who felt bad about partying on the day their Lord was killed and indulging during Lent, but they did so nonetheless. I am sure there are some Christians/Catholics who did not attend due to the scheduling. Were they prevented from attending? That was up to them. Did TRC create an unnecessary conflict? Absolutely. Thirty years ago, I don't believe an event like this would have been held on Good Friday; I don't think it's a sign of social progress that this year, it was.

OJ, if I expected an apology everytime someone falsely accused LC of malfeasance ...

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:37 am

I have a vague memory that when I was a grad student at UW, the university (and the rest of state government?) had Good Friday as a holiday. Or half-day. Or something. And then at some point, they dropped it. Is this a figment of my imagination, or does anyone else remember it?

kurt_w
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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:39 am

kurt_w wrote:I have a vague memory that when I was a grad student at UW, the university (and the rest of state government?) had Good Friday as a holiday. Or half-day. Or something. And then at some point, they dropped it. Is this a figment of my imagination, or does anyone else remember it?


Aha, I was remembering rightly:

One of the Foundation’s favorite legal successes was striking down the Wisconsin statute that provided for a Good Friday holiday. The 1945 statute prescribed that “On Good Friday, the period from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. shall uniformly be observed for the purpose of worship.” It was later amended to include a requirement that state offices close at noon on Good Friday.

FFRF, along with state employees objecting to the practice, challenged the statute. In FFRF v. Thompson, a Wisconsin federal district court struck down the law as unconstitutional. Freedom From Religion Foundation v. Thompson, 920 F.Supp. 969 (W.D. Wis. 1996). The court held that the purpose of the Wisconsin legislature in designating Good Friday afternoon as a holiday was to promote Christianity and endorse religion. The court wrote “… the statute clearly poses a practical disadvantage vis-à-vis Christians to those of other religions who must use annual leave to attend religious events while Christians are afforded a state holiday for the purpose of attending Good Friday religious observances.” Id. at 974. It ultimately concluded that, “[this] statutory language promoting a specific religion is more than just evidence of an impermissible legislative purpose, it is a permanent public pronouncement in a prominent public place endorsing a particular religion.” Id. at 972. Seecourt order and decision. As a result of FFRF’s legal victory, the state of Wisconsin gives state workers a half-holiday to be used at personal discretion, and ensures that state offices stay open on Good Friday.


So it looks like it was in 1996 (approximately) that this was changed.

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby Mean Scenester » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:24 am

kurt_w wrote:So it looks like it was in 1996 (approximately) that this was changed.

Yep. That was about the time I started working for the state. As a compromise, classified employees were given an extra 4 hours of personal time. So if one wanted to get one's Good Friday Freak on, you could cash those in. If you didn't care, you weren't obliged to take the time off just to accommodate the Catholics and instead could take your half-day whenever. So the religious holiday was effectively honored, the non-religious were no longer bound by someone else's dogma and the good citizens of WI are no longer denied state services on the Friday afternoon preceding Easter.

Win, win, win (which, by my count, is three more than this miserable thread).

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby jjoyce » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:26 am

Is insensitivity similar to, or even on the road to, hate?

What about straight up disrespect?

Because I'm acquainted with some people who are mighty insensitive and blatantly disrespectful... beyond the point of ignorance. Is that equivalent to hatred?

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby TheBookPolice » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:33 am

Stu Levitan wrote:I attended the TRC event because I support the organization. I was unable to eat many of the selections because of dietary restrictions during the holiday, but that was no big whoop; I don't expect secular organizations to care that deep into the holiday.

So you just want lip service? How is that respectful?

I'm at a loss as to the standard you'd like to hold these organizations to, Stu. It would appear that they'd need to be grade-A experts on world religion in order to be able to properly ascertain A) which of the world's religions are the major religions, B) the tenets and holidays of those major religions, and C) which tenets and holidays of the world's major religions are deal-breakers and which can be fudged. Otherwise, I can only interpret that you're asking for accommodation for one religion (yours) to salve to consciences of its adherents (you).

Swear to G-d, I really did think this was an April Fools prank.

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Re: Cultural Insensitivity

Postby gargantua » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:35 am

jjoyce wrote:Because I'm acquainted with some people who are mighty insensitive and blatantly disrespectful... beyond the point of ignorance. Is that equivalent to hatred?


Sounds more like simply being an asshole. Being an asshole doesn't have to involve hatred.


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