kurt_w wrote:You know, the identity in spelling between "lead" and "lead" really makes communication difficult on this topic....
Thus Led Zeppelin.
Francis Di Domizio wrote:lack of other viable options
Gentle Man wrote:Francis Di Domizio wrote:lack of other viable options
So if you're educated, financially secure and so on, you should be able to munch lead paint and pump gas along a busy Interstate (in the old days) all you wish with little danger of becoming a violent criminal?
Gentle Man wrote:In the end they just keep going back to a graph showing a decrease in violent crime with a graph showing a decrease in the use of leaded gasoline.
Gentle Man wrote:Could it have been a result of a cumulative effect of all these things, or a number of them?
As I understand it, the hypothesized effect is on decision-making ability, right?Gentle Man wrote:Henry Vilas wrote:Francis Di Domizio wrote:Henry, I don't get what you are trying to say.
I was just trying to counter Gentle Man's attempt to dispel the connection between poverty and crime when considering the affects of lead exposure.
I wasn't attempting to dispel a connection. I'm simply suggested that there has to be something more than just poverty to lead to crime. What is that "more?"
snoqueen wrote:I think what Gman is fishing for is some affirmation that people who commit crimes or are just incompetent at life's tasks can't be exonerated because they have brain damage from lead.
Gentle Man wrote: I'm still skeptical of why the attributed affects of lead in gasoline seem to target by socioeconomic class.
Gentle Man wrote:I'm also curious why, long after unleaded gas was introduced, and supposedly having a beneficial effect on the crime rate, crime rates continued to rise to their all-time-highs in places like Washington, D.C. and Detroit.
Gentle Man wrote:In the end they just keep going back to a graph showing a decrease in violent crime with a graph showing a decrease in the use of leaded gasoline. But a LOT of things happened during that time that could account for a decrease in violent crime. Removing lead from gasoline was just one of many things that reflected a change in outlook on the environment in a broad sense of the word. For example, changes in how society regarded and dealt with mental illness. Yes, gun laws got more liberal too. Changes in the educational system for special ed and people with learning disabilities. Recognition of the effects of bullying. Even a push to eat in a more healthy manner. A good economy during large stretches of this era happened also, as did laws cracking down on repeat offenders, e.g., 3-strike laws. These and many other societal changes coincide with reducing the amount of lead someone ingests. Is there a way that assures us we're giving credit where it's due and not just congratulating someone who happen to be in the same room at the right time? Could it have been a result of a cumulative effect of all these things, or a number of them? The original post gives a significant amount of the credit to a reduction in lead exposure. So the question is whether the justification for that is really all there.
Most likely, there was a real problem, but it was a problem no one had a clue about. We were poisoning our children with a well-known neurotoxin, and this toxin lowered their IQs, made them into fidgety kids, wrecked their educations, and then turned them into juvenile delinquents, teen mothers, and violent criminals. When we got rid of the toxin, all of these problems magically started to decline.
This doesn't mean that lead was 100 percent of the problem. There probably were other things going on too, and we can continue to argue about them. But the volume of the argument really ought to be lowered a lot. Maybe poverty makes a difference, maybe single parenting makes a difference, and maybe evolving societal attitudes toward child-rearing make a difference. But they probably don't make nearly as much difference as we all thought. In the end, we've learned a valuable lesson: don't poison your kids. That makes more difference than all the other stuff put together.
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