How to convince women to learn self-defence?

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Velveeta
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Postby Velveeta » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:27 pm

As a woman, I think being told by a man selling martial arts classes that you need to take a martial arts class in order to not be raped or assaulted by a man is a bad sales pitch. There are so many turnoffs built into that, I don't even know where to begin.

You have to understand that if someone doesn't want to learn your brand of self-defense, that doesn't mean they wouldn't or couldn't fight in such a situation. The best self defense classes I have ever had were more about trusting your gut(if you feel in danger, you probably are), taking control of situations, and using your voice.

zoobie
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Postby zoobie » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:03 am

Velveeta wrote:You have to understand that if someone doesn't want to learn your brand of self-defense, that doesn't mean they wouldn't or couldn't fight in such a situation. The best self defense classes I have ever had were more about trusting your gut(if you feel in danger, you probably are), taking control of situations, and using your voice.


Please go back and reread my first post. Opening a school and taking on more than a tiny number of students (which I already have, and I'm not charging them anything) is years down the road. Of course most people will resist when someone is on top of them although without training the odds are heavily stacked against them. It doesn't matter if people fight like me, only that they fight well.

Several times in discussion with people who've had no physical or awareness training I've been told "I don't want to think about that." and "It'll never happen to me." Yet all too often it will.

I've been told this when trying to get folks to watch my copy of "the missing link" by Bill Kipp, the best vid ever made about de-escalating violent situations and confrontations before they occur. This is just assertiveness training which imo is much more important than any technical skill set, yet the denial-minded seem uninterested. "Too violent.", and this is just a video about raising you voice.

Perhaps y'all are correct and I should stop wasting my time. I'm not the one who's going to get knifed or raped. Perhaps it's easier for some to just let the guy stick it in and get therapy afterwards. I just find the willing victim mindset alien.

I guess not resisting evil is part of a woman's right to choose the kind of life she pleases. But I think it's a poor choice.

auntgoodness
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Re: Train hard and stay safe!

Postby auntgoodness » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:36 am

Zoobie, Zoobie, Zoobie. I know you mean well, but instead of encouraging women, you are insulting them.

zoobie wrote:Perhaps it's easier for some to just let the guy stick it in and get therapy afterwards. I just find the willing victim mindset alien.

I can't figure out why you keep defaulting to this degrading shit. Far as I can tell no one who has posted on here has that view. Just because they are trying to figure out your pitch doesn't mean they are "willing vicitms."

I suppose you might only mean the supposed people who've said "It won't happen to me." You still have no right to talk to them that way or assume someone prefers rape to not rape. I'm sure you don't mean to, but you sound like a condescending woman-hating jerk in the quote above.

zoobie wrote:I guess not resisting evil is part of a woman's right to choose the kind of life she pleases. But I think it's a poor choice.

"Not resisting evil?" Where the hell are you getting this idea? You are twisting your own good intentions around. One more time, bro, instead of encouraging women, you are insulting them.

zoobie
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Re: Train hard and stay safe!

Postby zoobie » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:55 am

auntgoodness wrote:Zoobie, Zoobie, Zoobie. I know you mean well, but instead of encouraging women, you are insulting them.

Sorry, you're right of course. I shouldn't post before coffee. The abuse and obvious twisting of my words on this thread has left me a bit defensive and peevish. Trolls get to me and I get snappish. Mea culpa.

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Re: Train hard and stay safe!

Postby auntgoodness » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:59 am

zoobie wrote: I shouldn't post before coffee.

I understand. I'm subhuman before coffee.

thebookpolice
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Re: Train hard and stay safe!

Postby thebookpolice » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:07 pm

zoobie wrote:
auntgoodness wrote:Zoobie, Zoobie, Zoobie. I know you mean well, but instead of encouraging women, you are insulting them.

Sorry, you're right of course. I shouldn't post before coffee. The abuse and obvious twisting of my words on this thread has left me a bit defensive and peevish. Trolls get to me and I get snappish. Mea culpa.


Your hole was dug with your first post. Subsequent posts just made it deeper. Does it make you feel more righteous in your efforts if you call everyone who disagrees with you "trolls"?

Ducatista
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Postby Ducatista » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:10 pm

zoobie wrote:The abuse and obvious twisting of my words on this thread has left me a bit defensive and peevish. Trolls get to me and I get snappish.

Bzzzzzzzt. I call bullshit on that one. Your opening post set the tone, and nobody trolled. The fact that so many people (including me) have responded earnestly, despite your repeated condescension, shows this is a subject people take seriously. You got off easy.

[Doh, sorry for the echo, TBP.]

zoobie
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Postby zoobie » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:25 pm

Ducatista wrote:The fact that so many people (including me) have responded earnestly, despite your repeated condescension, shows this is a subject people take seriously. You got off easy.


And what subject is that? My perceived lack of tact not withstanding, I asked how to convince people with no physical or awareness skills of the need to learn self-reliance and protection in this very dangerous and violently crime infested world. What do you suggest?

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Postby GenieU » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:38 pm

Years ago my ultra-feminist, ultra-angry room mate had this same type of discussion. Being a typically clumsy guy: I looked immediatly for practical solutions: "If your scared (and there was plenty to be scared of in Chicago)take self defense...Duh"

Somehow my simply stated logic DIDN'T FLY AT ALL With the said room mate-go figure.

Years later after a mutual friend was murdered late at night in a cab while returning from a club This same person came around-on her own accord. At this point in my life I knew better than to go rubbing her face in an argument that took place in about 1989.

The moral: Wisdom, such as it is cannot be commuicated. Especially when the stakes are loaded: like Parent to child or Men to Women.

Zoobie:Maybe leave the marketing to your wife-No offense, but from what I can tell she's probably the right one for this job.

mrak
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Postby mrak » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:40 pm

What Ducatista suggested is back on page 2 of this thread. When you replied to that post, you disregarded that part and replied only to the sentence I quote below.

Here's some advice for you: Come out of the marketing closet.

A few forons have correctly discerned your initial line of inquiry:
Ducatista wrote:Zoobie, it sounds as if your real question is, how do I convince women to spend money on a self-defense class?

In your reply, you appeared to bristle at this as if it somehow impugned your motives (all the while claiming the other participants in thread were easily offended).

But regardless of whether your motive is to help women, or to generate revenue (a perfectly honorable one, IMHO) - or both - you are offering a service, and you asked for marketing assistance, whether or not you actually used the "M" word itself.

In among the natural noise level of the Forum (no denying it's there), there were some good, sincere attempts to help (posts by Ducatista and Robbie Webber come to mind), but if you paid them any fair consideration, it isn't reflected in your replies to this thread.

The bottom line is, you need to tailor your message to its audience, or it becomes no more effective than this guy's.

Based on your choice of words in this thread (see especially the post where auntgoodness called you out), you may need to recognize that crafting a message that resonates with the women you're trying to reach, simply falls outside of your range of communication styles, and you may need to seek outside assistance (i.e, hire someone) in refining that message.

That doesn't make you a less capable businessman; in fact, knowing what work you can't/shouldn't take on yourself is a good quality.

zoobie
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Train hard and stay safe!

Postby zoobie » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:47 pm

Thank you for the advice, mrak. I hadn't considered it as marketing at all.

zoobie
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Postby zoobie » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:18 pm

It's easy to get sucked into conflict and stop listening to what people are saying. Especially when motives aren't easily understood.

People often seem recalcitrant against the idea of self defense as if some invisible paternal force will keep them safe. Does anyone have any ideas to help me understand this paradigm?

thebookpolice
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Postby thebookpolice » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:27 pm

IT'S A MADE-UP FUCKING PARADIGM, YOU JACKASS.

You obviously didn't learn anything from the first five pages of this ridiculous discussion, if you still insist on portraying people as either agreeing with you, or simply waiting to die.

Jesus fucking Christ. Some people don't feel the need to be told how to survive; they just do it, naturally.

zoobie
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Postby zoobie » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:33 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:IT'S A MADE-UP FUCKING PARADIGM, YOU JACKASS.

You obviously didn't learn anything from the first five pages of this ridiculous discussion, if you still insist on portraying people as either agreeing with you, or simply waiting to die.

Jesus fucking Christ. Some people don't feel the need to be told how to survive; they just do it, naturally.



Hmmm. thank-you for your opinion. But aren't all paradigms made up? I'll consider what you say. Anyone else?

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Postby robbie webber » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:43 pm

OK, let's de-escalate a bit. Let's change the subject and ask a similar question.

"How do you get people to have a better sense about their personal finances? Many people run up their credit cards and don't save at all. They are in debt over their heads. They think they will always be able to pay their bills. But people lose their jobs; the economy can have downturns; they can get hurt and not be able to work. [AFLAC!] How do I convince them to take a class in personal finance and change their habits? They just don't seem to want to think it can happen to them."

Answer: Sometimes you can't convinve them. They are in denial. It's a human trait. You can only be there for them when they fail. You can also model good habits with your friends, family, neighbors, and work associates.

Gently prod them to good habits, don't hit them over the head, and drop the scare tactics. It just makes people more resistant.


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