You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Cadfael
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:46 am

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Cadfael » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:26 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
gargantua wrote:All I can say is that Southwest won my business.

I've flown on them a few times and I would use them even more if only they flew out of Madison.

That does seem to be United's slogan. "Yeah, we'll bloody your face if you get out of line but we're cheap and we fly the barebones commuter routes so get on the fucking plane and shut up."

PaleoLiberal
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2371
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Location: Madison

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby PaleoLiberal » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:33 pm

The only worse customer service I've seen has been Amtrack, which, having a monopoly, could treat their passengers far worse than even United.

Back in the early 80s a conductor charged the same girl for the same ticket twice. When another customer tried to point out the mistake, the conductor challenged him to a fight. At the next stop, the conductor brought in the cops to remove the customer, and the cops refused to get involved.

Zoti Bemba
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 717
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:34 pm
Contact:

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Zoti Bemba » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:15 pm

As a regular Amtrak rider all I can say is that things have changed a lot since the early 1980's. Not that I ever saw anything quite like what you describe back then, either... Though Amtrak did once pay for a taxi ride from Chicago to Madison during the Greyhound Bus strike in... 1989?... because I had a through ticket for the connecting bus service which clearly wasn't connecting at the time. Amtrak has been pretty good to me over the years to make up for their various extreme timeliness shortfalls and other natural and man-made disasters. Maybe a bit less generous recently, but pure luxury service compared to what the airlines have become. Plus on Amtrak you'll always have leg room.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 25423
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:38 pm

Two airlines I hate to fly on are American and Frontier. I have horror stories about American and after Frontier bought out Midwest Express, it went way down hill. I really miss Midwest Express.

PaleoLiberal
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2371
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Location: Madison

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby PaleoLiberal » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:59 pm

For many of the flights I take, the choices are United or American.

I already had lots of FF miles with United for trips I used to take to LHR, so I fly United.
American hasn't done anything to make me want to switch.

Ducatista
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 5422
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:31 am
Location: 53703

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Ducatista » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:32 am

Cadfael wrote:Jimmy Kimmel already said it: "when we book a flight we'll choose whoever's a dollar less than the other one. Every time."

Not true for me. I'll pay more to fly Delta/KLM/Air France. Just did in March, in fact.

Airline trivia: What English phrase is emblazoned on KLM (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij) planes? "The Flying Dutchman." Makes me smile every time I see it.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 25423
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:02 am


Kashka-Kat
Senior Member
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:03 pm

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Kashka-Kat » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:32 pm

You don't get offered cash to take another flight, that's been mis-reported - just some lousy voucher supposedly good for a future flight but in reality few people actually get to use them - dont quote me but I think I read 15%. Maybe people are just getting wise to the scam - I know Ill never make that mistake again Thought Id get a free trip but in reality there were so many dates/destinations blocked out, plus a limit of only so many vouchers they would allow per flight. I was never able to use it to go anywhere that Id want to go... and then it expires after a year. If you want to take your vacation somewhere like Fort Wayne Indiana it might be worth your while - but forget any major city or anywhere fun.

Cadfael
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:46 am

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Cadfael » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:23 pm

Here's an interesting little piece. According to these guys, who SEEM to know the law, this was not an overbook. They didn't really sell more seats than they had. What they had was an unexpected need to get four employees somewhere else, so they threw out people who were already seated. Legally, this was giving one passenger preference over another, and while that's fine for how you treat your passengers, it's not legal to bump one passenger to make room for one you have deemed more important.

Mister Dao gonna kick some butt with this one.
United Airlines Did Not Have the Legal Right to Refuse Service to the Doctor Dragged Off Its Plane
However, other passengers on the flight, and the CEO of United Airlines, explained that the flight was not, in fact, overbooked but that four passengers had been requested to give up their seats for crew members who had to commute to Louisville, Kentucky, to work on flights the following day.

The fact that the flight was not overbooked may seem trivial, or pedantic, but there is very important legal distinction to be made. There may not be a difference in how an airline (typically) responds when it needs additional seats, such as asking for volunteers who wish to give up their seat for a voucher or cash. But there is a legal difference between bumping a passenger in the instance of overselling a flight versus bumping a passenger to give priority to another passenger. Any thoughtful person can see the problem that arises if an airline were allowed to legally remove one fare-paying passenger to allow for another passenger it prefers.

Since the flight was not actually overbooked, but instead only fully booked, with the exact number of passengers as seats available, United Airlines had no legal right to force any passengers to give up their seats to prioritize others. What United did was give preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, in violation of 14 CFR 250.2a. Since Dr. Dao was already seated, it was clear that his seat had already been "reserved" and "confirmed" to accommodate him specifically.

Nowhere in the terms of service does United Airlines claim to have unilateral authority to refuse service to anyone, for any reason (which would be illegal anyway).

I wonder if this opened the door for the other three passengers to launch suits of their own?

gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 8755
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby gargantua » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:02 pm

I hope so. I hope they each get their own 737 and exclusive use of a trained flight crew.

Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 10604
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:35 pm
Contact:

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:27 pm

Hmmm. The issue I'm having with the analysis in Cadfael's link is that employees of an airline seem clearly distinct to me from paying customers.

Cadfael
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:46 am

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Cadfael » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:58 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Hmmm. The issue I'm having with the analysis in Cadfael's link is that employees of an airline seem clearly distinct to me from paying customers.

They may not be paying customers but they are passengers; they are definitely not crew.

I'm wondering if they are paid customers, though. They're flying for free but someone's picking up the tab for the fuel they're causing the plane to use. That's probably United, so United is paying their way and not expecting them to do any work on the flight. Which probably makes them passengers. As evidence I note that they were given the seats emptied by the paying customers who were forced off.

Cadfael
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:46 am

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Cadfael » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:58 am

United has put new rules into effect.

They've decided to:
Never throw out a paid, seated passenger again.
Never "ask" law enforcement officials to remove a paid passenger unless it is a clear issue of safety or security.
Employees scheduled for work elsewhere must check in an hour before takeoff.

They haven't said it out loud but I'm thinking they have also decided to never send a public statement praising employees actions until they've waited a few days to see how the company stock behaves.

david cohen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2074
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:48 pm

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby david cohen » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:05 pm

United might be in the news this month, but really, there are no domestic airlines without their own fair share of issues. In the past, United has always been very good to our family. Since the merger with Continental, I've noticed a slight downturn in service, but I chalk that up to lack of competition to outperform competitors. American/US Air is just as much a crapshoot, and Delta/Northwest the same. I try to avoid commuter jets when flying with one of my sons who has some air travel issues, and nothing sucks worse than dropping $600 on a ticket for an Airbus A320, only to find out they have downsized to a commuter jet- and then getting to the gate to find they have oversold said commuter jet. Luckily, or travel routes as of late allow me to avoid that scenario, but the bottom line is that domestic air travel bites the big one, no matter the carrier.

I have friends who chalk this up to the idea that ANYBODY can fly nowadays- as opposed to the 1960s and 70s when only a certain social class could afford to fly and were always dressed for the occasion. I don't subscribe to that theory; however, domestic airlines no longer have to CATER to passengers, and that might be what my friends are really getting at.

I'll say this for United- they have routinely dealt with any issues we have had (guitars in flight cases in the cabin, seating re-arrangement for my sons traveling together, etc.) very professionally. But this latest incident is just way over the top:(

Cadfael
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:46 am

Re: You're Not Mad at United Airlines; You're Mad at America

Postby Cadfael » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:53 pm

david cohen wrote:United might be in the news this month, but really, there are no domestic airlines without their own fair share of issues.

The key word there is "domestic" which fits right in with the thread title. In my own humble opinion, United's biggest mistake was being the first airline to take it this far. I don't think there are any American ones who wouldn't have done the same thing until a few days ago. We're just the only country with a major airline who lets them get away with it.


Return to “National Politics & Government”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 8 guests