The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
IU2Bmanoletters
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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby IU2Bmanoletters » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:56 pm

jman111 wrote:From your link:
The Role of the United States Military: Given its staggering human and monetary costs, war should be a last resort. Exhaust all other options first, but keep a robust military at the ready.

What are Bernie’s general views about the role of the United States military?
Bernie has stated clearly that he believes in “a strong defense system for our country and a robust National Guard and Reserve that can meet our domestic and foreign challenges.” Nonetheless, Bernie believes that military intervention should be a last resort, not a first resort, and that a bloated defense budget represents an improper prioritization of defense issues at a time when the country is plagued by pressing domestic challenges.

Not a strong argument for "excessively interventionist and militaristic." I think you're barking up the wrong tree.


A couple other really good reasons, IMO, to be done with Bernie, at least in terms of his foreign policy. I'm jolly for Jill (Stein!):

"Bernie Sanders says he would use drones to fight terror as president:"
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ter-terror

"Bernie Sanders Says US 'Kill List' Legal, Backs Troops in Syria:"
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/B ... -0017.html

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby fflambeau » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:37 pm

It seems that many Jill Stein supporters feel that we need, in essence, very little in the way of a military force, but that would be a mistake. It is true we have a bloated military with too many generals/admirals getting all the hardware they lust for. That should end, and I think a 10% reduction in spending on the military would tighten their belt but not be destructive (with that money going to a "peace dividend").

On the other hand, maybe the Jill Stein supporters do not understand that we live in a dangerous world and that there are many destructive people, and nations (like North Korea) out there. Witness what is going on in Turkey right now; in France, and throughout the Middle East. Drones might not be appealing, but what is a better alternative?

That's why I think Bernie is brilliant; he understands the pain and the reasoning but he is rooted in reality; some of his supporters and the Jill Stein crowd do not and are not.

Another poster (above) helpfully has quoted Bernie on defense and I think Sen. Sanders gets it right:

"Bernie has stated clearly that he believes in “a strong defense system for our country and a robust National Guard and Reserve that can meet our domestic and foreign challenges.” Nonetheless, Bernie believes that military intervention should be a last resort, not a first resort, and that a bloated defense budget represents an improper prioritization of defense issues at a time when the country is plagued by pressing domestic challenges."

But a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump and he is insane. Bernie gets that even though some well meaning but misguided posters here do not. You have to do everything within your power as a voter to stop the fascist Trump from taking over; Bernie understands that and has pledged to do everything in his power to stop Trump and elect Hillary. Note that does NOT include voting for Jill Stein because by doing so, you are just pissing in the wind. That is not only my assessment, it is also Bernie Sanders's assessment.

On the other hand, it is true that Hillary is too much on the side of the military. However, I feel that she can be reined in by senators like Sanders, Warren and Feingold (if reelected); by robust public opinion; and, by her running mate. That is why her VP selection is so important.

I am pleased that she has moved leftward on important issues (like single payer, like an elevated minimum wage, like help to college students with their tuition problems). Is she a perfect candidate? No. But she is far, far better than what Trump will usher in. And let's not forget that Clinton was to the left of Sanders on gun control, women's issues and minority rights.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby Galoot » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:19 am

John Henry, Comey's words, when asked if Hillary Clinton lied to the FBI, were "we have no basis to conclude she lied to the FBI". Video of that exchange here.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:00 pm

fflambeau wrote:But a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump

No, it isn't.
You make many good points. This is not one of them.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby fflambeau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:19 pm

To Prof. Wagstaff, let's just say that a vote for Jill Stein helps Trump more than it does Hillary Clinton (and it will do NOTHING to get Stein elected, by the way).

Bernie Sanders himself has said, on numerous occasions, he will do all that he can to see Trump NOT elected President. That's why he will vote for Clinton and that is why he turned down Stein's invitation to be "her" party's candidate.

Sorry, this is not rocket science.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby gargantua » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:27 pm

Duplicate post
Last edited by gargantua on Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby gargantua » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:29 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
fflambeau wrote:But a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump

No, it isn't.
You make many good points. This is not one of them.

Obviously, I won't vote for Trump. But I am worried about the Supreme Court. So if Wisconsin is close, I'm thinking I'll tamp down my gag reflex and vote for Hillary. You have no idea how hard this will be. But hopefully she'll have a nice safe lead by November and I can finally cast a vote I feel good about in a presidential election. If not, I'll vote for Hillary because there is more at stake than usual.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby fflambeau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:36 pm

Village Voice columnist and Trump biographer, Wayne Barrett, on Trump: "He’s not fit to run the Trump Organization. So he’s certainly not fit to run America,” Barrett said. "I think he represents not just a danger to America, but because we are such an influence in the world, it’s really a shocking threat to the world.
Source: democracynow.org

Voting for Stein does nothing to advance the causes of Stein, but it does help Trump. And Sanders has shown that reform of the Democratic party can occur in that party. He has turned down Stein's offer to run as "her" party's candidate.

And Gargantua is exactly correct that the "big prize" in the upcoming election is not just the Presidency, but the composition of the Supreme Court for decades to come. Not only Garland as a replacement for Scalia but a replacement for Ruth Bader Ginsburg and likely several other justices (like Thomas and Kennedy). Without the Court, NO meaningful change can happen on: climate change, criminal justice reform, gay/women's rights, health care reforms and everything else. Think twice about your "protest" vote.
Last edited by fflambeau on Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby fflambeau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:43 pm

To Gargantua: I respect your reasoning but be careful with polls.

Remember, Brexit, according to ALL of the polls, was losing but it ended up by winning by 4%. The same kind of tea party extremists behind Brexit are also behind Trump (and Trump went to Scotland the day of the Brexit vote). Their hidden agenda is bringing about ultra conservative changes and they used immigration/racism to win. Look familiar?

Don't play with fire. As you wisely said, "there is more at stake than usual".

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby gargantua » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:47 pm

It's got to be 5 points beyond the margin of error. I'm not crazy, dude!

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby fflambeau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:51 pm

That's what a lot of "remain" people thought too who voted for Brexit, and now they deeply regret what they did. They too are not crazy, they just did something that they now wish they hadn't.

Another example closer to home: all the polls, including the respected Field Poll, showed the recent Democratic California Primary to be a toss-up between Clinton and Sanders. Actual result: Clinton won easily by 7% (that's the official result; results on primary night were more).

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:17 am

fflambeau wrote:. . . a vote for Jill Stein helps Trump more than it does Hillary Clinton

Not sure I really agree with this. It doesn't help Trump or Clinton. It helps nobody, it seems to me, because I do agree with this:
fflambeau wrote:. . . it will do NOTHING to get Stein elected, by the way.

I also think the "sending a message to Washington" take on voting doesn't accomplish anything. I don't think Washington is listening.

The reason I keep reminding you that the "a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump" line shouldn't be part of your arsenal is that, if your goal is to convince people to vote for Clinton, that's not gonna help. I know far too many people who bristled when "informed" their vote for Nader way back when "got Bush elected" (because it didn't) or that they were "spoilers" (because they weren't) so I know from experience that such rhetoric has the opposite effect you're seeking. It just turns people off to your message. And the thing is, I like your message. I think Trump needs to be stopped at all costs. So I'm just trying to help you hone your message to help achieve our common goal. Nobody likes to be told who they "have" to vote for, or who they "can't" vote for, and that's what comes through, I think, when you use the "a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump" line. (It's also just fallacious reasoning, which bugs me in most any context.)

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:39 am

While a vote for Nader was not a vote for Bush, by not voting for Gore, Bush became president. Shock and Awe.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby Polka_Tulk » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:35 am

fflambeau wrote: it is true that Hillary is too much on the side of the military. However, I feel that she can be reined in by senators like Sanders, Warren and Feingold (if reelected); by robust public opinion; and, by her running mate.

Bush the Lesser brought two wars. Obama brought six wars. Clinton, trained like a Pavlovian Dog, will do whatever her fascist handlers tell her to do, and bring on War of the Worlds in MENA.
These are Vampire Squid, the Takers, Mafia Elites who "settled the Western Frontier" and are now the 'Disrupters' of the Public Space into a privatized Fivrr-Uber-Hell. They own you. You are owned by the Private Central Bankim. Even a small child will tell you that your only real 'free choice' is to write-in "Hell No" in November, then flee to the 3W.
"We did not know" lol, sure you didn't.

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Re: The Hillary Clinton for President Thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:57 am

So where are you going to go, small child?


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