Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

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Bludgeon
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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:19 pm

pjbogart wrote:I'm not a "progressive" or a "liberal" because I'm some dewy-eyed idealist. But as Donald and basically every other progressive on this forum has pointed out on numerous occasions, your anger is misplaced and frankly, irrational. Black woman defrauds the government and buys some lobster tails? Outrageous! White guy makes a billion dollars selling fraudulent derivatives? Smart dude!

People would take you more seriously if you showed a little consistency. As it is, you seem more concerned about black folks gaming the system than white folks outright robbing it.

Yeah I really don't see what would give you the impression that I am 'angry' other than the possibility that you and Donald just impute that things you don't like to hear must mean someone is angry? If I tell Donald he's stupid, it's not because I'm upset with him, it's because he's an idiot.

You're right: there's fraud in entitlement programs and everyone knows it. You also made a good post on page 1 that gave me hope for something more than the usual:
Certainly one can make the argument that the economy is still very weak and those additional benefits should have been extended, but let's not affirm the Republican accusation that any benefit, once conferred, can never be taken away.

What I don't get is what is the point, that we have to get to the end of page 3 before die hard partisans will even admit the obvious, that many benefits climb to somewhat lavish levels, especially when the individual is maxing them out in combination with a variety of other benefit programs; and that there tends to be a lot of fraud and abuse, which is just common knowledge.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby DCB » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:36 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
DCB wrote:Remember when Reagan talked about the 'cadillac-driving welfare queens'? And wingnuts ate it up even though it was bullshit?

The more things change ....

So your suggestion is what? What was 'bullshit'? You seem like you're trying to give the impression that there's some foregone conclusion there that's so obvious that it's somehow 'ridiculous' to even question.

The bullshit is the claim that SNAP (aka 'food stamps') is rife with fraud. Its just as phony as Reagan's "cadillac-driving welfare queens". ( It just as phony as your "I'm non-partisan" schtick. "Acorn video" - really? )

My position is not a foregone conclusion - its an established fact. I'm not going to waste my time debating the anecdotes with the voices in your insular echo chamber.

The implication seems to be that we don't need to worry about the cuts to SNAP - that the 47 million people who get those benefits will get along just fine. The reality is those cuts will hurt honest people.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 pm

DCB wrote:The bullshit is the claim that SNAP (aka 'food stamps') is rife with fraud.

It's completely rife with fraud and abuse, and anyone with any decent amount of exposure to the program knows it's completely rife with fraud and abuse. Most people committing fraud and abuse will gladly tell you that it's rife with fraud and abuse because they also know any serious prosecution of widespread fraud and abuse is not going to happen. The only people who don't think it's rife with fraud and abuse are delusional partisans with a personal political stake in the social welfare programs as a means of political patronage; those people are also selling a lot of other fanciful notions they don't care to know the truth of.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Donald » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:59 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
DCB wrote:The bullshit is the claim that SNAP (aka 'food stamps') is rife with fraud.

It's completely rife with fraud and abuse, and anyone with any decent amount of exposure to the program knows it's completely rife with fraud and abuse. Most people committing fraud and abuse will gladly tell you that it's rife with fraud and abuse because they also know any serious prosecution of widespread fraud and abuse is not going to happen. The only people who don't think it's rife with fraud and abuse are delusional partisans with a personal political stake in the social welfare programs as a means of political patronage; those people are also selling a lot of other fanciful notions they don't care to know the truth of.

Yet you can't cite any case of fraud and abuse. You're a freaking nut case. The only person committing fraud and abuse on this subject is YOU!

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Sandi » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:42 pm

Donald wrote:Yet you can't cite any case of fraud and abuse. You're a freaking nut case. The only person committing fraud and abuse on this subject is YOU!


You keep asking for a straw-man. Of course Bludgeon can't cite any case. You don't have a clue.

I live in Janesville's 4th Ward. I talk to, and see welfare cheaters on a daily basis. No one is as quick to talk about gaming the system as those doing the gaming. They seem to be rather proud of it.

Those neighbors on my south side, and those behind me tell me that their SNAP cards free up a lots of money they can use to hit the taverns.

However they are not going to write about it publicly and supply us with links.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Average Joe » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:00 am

Anecdotal examples of perceived fraud viewed through the lenses of hyper-partisans with a disdain for the government safety net does not represent facts. There are ways to actually study fraud.

It’s not easy to get agreement on actual fraud levels in government programs. Unsurprisingly, liberals say they’re low, while conservatives insist they’re astronomically high. In truth, it varies from program to program. One government report says fraud accounts for less than 2 percent of unemployment insurance payments. It’s seemingly impossible to find statistics on “welfare” (i.e., TANF) fraud, but the best guess is that it’s about the same. A bevy of inspector general reports found “improper payment” levels of 20 to 40 percent in state TANF programs -- but when you look at the reports, the payments appear all to be due to bureaucratic incompetence (categorized by the inspector general as either “eligibility and payment calculation errors” or “documentation errors”), rather than intentional fraud by beneficiaries.

A similar story emerges with everyone’s favorite punching bag, food stamps (or, as they’re known today, SNAP). Earlier this year, Senator John Thune of South Dakota and Rep. Marlin Stutzman of Indiana, both Republicans, introduced legislation to save $30 billion over 10 years from SNAP, purportedly by “eliminating loopholes, waste, fraud, and abuse.” Once you dig into their fact sheet, however, none of the savings actually come from fraud, but rather from cutting funding and tightening benefits. That’s probably because fraud levels in SNAP appear to be as low as with the other “pure welfare” programs we just touched on: “Payment error” rates -- money sent in incorrect amounts and/or to the wrong people -- have declined from near 10 percent a decade ago to 3 to 4 percent today, most of it due, again, to government error, not active fraud. The majority of food-stamp fraud appears to be generated by supermarkets “trafficking” in the food stamps. Beneficiaries intentionally ripping off the taxpayers account for perhaps 1 percent of payments.


Link

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:56 am

Sandi wrote:That is why they continue to attack you personally with fervor. Can't attack the message, so attack the messenger.


Who is the they?

Bludgeon wrote: Are you related to the mentally challenged Stebben84? Because he's also a clumsy, hapless dimwit who has trouble finding the light switch.


Keep in mind Sandi, I haven't even posted in this thread until now. Didn't see you call Bludge out. I didn't post in this thread because it's the same tired claims of rampant fraud just like the voter issue. People say there is widespread fraud from anecdotal evidence and then others must prove there is not. I think Average Joe debunked this with his article, but I guess that won't matter because some have "talked to people." Whatever. I don't deny there is fraud. It's the levels I disagree with, but it's not worth arguing about if the only evidence is "some people I talked too" or naming some poor neighborhoods. Alas, I'll be called a poophead by Bludge and Sandi will continue to claim it's the libruls who are angry. Carry on.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby penquin » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:07 am

FWIW, I've had disagreement of opinion with Stebben and s/he has always treated me with respect if not out-right kindness. Certainly nothing clumsy nor hapless in the replies towards me.

*shrug*

That aside, someone who rants on&on about blatant fraud they claim to have first-hand knowledge of yet refuses to at least report it is either a hypocrite or a liar.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby jman111 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:49 am

Problem #1: define "fraud" with respect to SNAP

What Bludge seems most "concerned" about is the transfer of SNAP funds to non-recipients (selling "food stamps" for cash at 50% value). From a percentage standpoint, I don't know how prevalent this is. However, my experience tells me that this is not uncommon.

Do the fraud stats capture this? I don't know. They seem to focus on incorrect payments, not the above scenario.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Detritus » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:50 am

Sandi wrote:Those neighbors on my south side, and those behind me tell me that their SNAP cards free up a lots of money they can use to hit the taverns.

However they are not going to write about it publicly and supply us with links.

You obviously don't like the fact that SNAP recipients can spend their own money as they see fit, but your disapproval doesn't magically transform their behavior into fraud. Using their SNAP cards in the taverns--that would be fraud, aided by the tavern owners. But that's not what they're doing.

I'll bet this is the "fraud" Bludgie is fulminating over as well: poor people do things he doesn't think they should be allowed to do.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby jman111 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:55 am

Sandi wrote:Those neighbors on my south side, and those behind me tell me that their SNAP cards free up a lots of money they can use to hit the taverns.

So, we should be shocked that those living in or on the verge of poverty choose to self-medicate? Are we to believe that recipients of governmental assistance are to have no "fun money". They should be afforded nothing more than an opportunity to survive, minimally?

Why is there not a similar expectation of those receiving farm subsidies? Mortage interest deductions? VA benefits?

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby jman111 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:12 am

OK, here's one source:
USDA has cut “trafficking” — the sale of SNAP benefits for cash, which violates federal law — by three-quarters over the past 15 years. Only 1 percent, or $1 in every $100 of SNAP benefits, is trafficked.


another:
On August 15, the Department of Agriculture (USDA) released a new report on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), also known as food stamps, which found that benefit trafficking -- "when SNAP recipients sell their benefits for cash to food retailers, often at a discount" -- had risen slightly from 1.0 percent of total SNAP benefits in 2006-2008 to just 1.3 percent in 2009-2011.


Not sure 1%, or even 1.3%, constitutes "rife with fraud and abuse", especially when compared with other programs.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby jman111 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:15 am

And there's this:
It’s worth comparing the Department of Defense fraud to the SNAP fraud, merely because our responses are vastly different. For instance, a 2011 report prepared by the Department of Defense for Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT), discovered that the DoD had issued over $1.1 trillion during the preceding 10 years to companies that had defrauded the government; including continuing to issue millions to companies that had been convicted or found liable of fraud. Some of these are the biggest names in defense contracting; Northrup Grumman, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, etc. Those companies will continue to be the recipients of government largesse, regardless of their track records, because they form a vital part of our defense network. The DoD spent $1.811 trillion on procurement and research, development, testing, and evaluation over the same period; but that’s merely the best number I can find. Suffice it to say, a history of fraud does not disqualify one from receiving DoD money.


I sure hope nobody over at Boeing is allowed to frequent taverns.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby wack wack » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:19 am

Bludgeon wrote:
DCB wrote:The bullshit is the claim that SNAP (aka 'food stamps') is rife with fraud.

It's completely rife with fraud and abuse, and anyone with any decent amount of exposure to the program knows it's completely rife with fraud and abuse.


You've shown no evidence of this. None. You are a liar and propagandist.

I have several friends who are social workers, with not just decent exposure but an intimate knowledge of the SNAP program, and they all tell me the fraud stories are pure bullshit.

I will take their qualified experience over your hateful wishes any day. The best thing is, no matter what obnoxiously hateful lies you try to use to rebut this, my friends will still be intelligent, experienced social workers who know what is going on and you will still be the sad, ignorant, hateful you.

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Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby jman111 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:29 am

wack wack wrote:I have several friends who are social workers, with not just decent exposure but an intimate knowledge of the SNAP program, and they all tell me the fraud stories are pure bullshit.

Yeah, but...but...but, they're in on it!
Bludge said so!


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