Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Detritus » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:23 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Who do you think receives $116? What do you think the upper limit is? Are you trying to make yourself believe there is a family of four with no job and no other income living on $116 a month with not enough food to eat, you fucking moron?

Bludge, Bludge, Bludge--your epidermis is showing.

Click here and scroll down to the table with the column labeled "Maximum Monthly Allotment. Note that to get near $1,000 a month you have to have, yes, 7 family members and an adjusted net monthly income of $2,968 (amazing, but true--you have to prove your income and your assets to get the benefits). Oh, wait, you have to scroll back up to see that number. OK, I'll wait while you figure out how to do that.

Incidentally, your original "quote" only mentioned "food stamps," so don't think we haven't noticed you bringing up other things now that reality has begun cracking around you. Oh, and those footsteps behind you, quickly filling with water? They're yours.

DCB
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3205
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby DCB » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:18 am

Remember when Reagan talked about the 'cadillac-driving welfare queens'? And wingnuts ate it up even though it was bullshit?

The more things change ....

Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:17 am

DCB wrote:Remember when Reagan talked about the 'cadillac-driving welfare queens'? And wingnuts ate it up even though it was bullshit?

The more things change ....

So your suggestion is what? What was 'bullshit'? You seem like you're trying to give the impression that there's some foregone conclusion there that's so obvious that it's somehow 'ridiculous' to even question.

In actuality most of you have yet to make a valid point, and have been doing nothing but sounding the typical partisan notes, not making the effort to anchor the same old, tired progressive doctrine to any tangible reality.

When it comes to partisans, progressives are a kind peculiar in their tendency to try to shut down rather than explore a debate, and in this case that debate is about the integrity of our social welfare programs and the people on them.

The partisanship of a prog is really a shame, because its obvious these programs are really important to you on a personal level, they are something you want to believe in. But outside theory, in practice, it's not something that the politicians and the social workers and the government regulators are willing to stick their neck out to protect. And we really ought to be protecting the integrity of these programs for the people that need them. And it's not something partisans are willing to safeguard either. For most liberals the 'assumed' virtue of social welfare programs is just something to talk about, they don't care and don't want to know what they don't want to see.

It's called gaming the system. Again, "-- when material wealth is in limited supply, they will take what is there to be had." I did have the opportunity to reaffirm this fact with a half dozen ladies this last week, but it was hardly the first time. The funny thing is, this is something you could reaffirm all day long [any day of the week] and never run out of people to tell you the truth. Outside of the isthmus and the rich parts of town, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone who doesn't know someone who's gaming the system. So if you want to delude yourself with partisan nonsense, go ahead, but don't waste my time with this air of 'forgone conclusion'. I'm not one of the progressive faithful, you're going to have to actually state your case.

Donald
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2505
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:53 pm
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Donald » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:52 am

The point is that Bludgeon is coming from a place that is completely removed from the reality of life of people using "food stamps." His life is completely different from this reality, and the ideology he has built up around his reality hinders his ability to face established facts or to empathize with someone whose reality is that she buries her shame to apply for help so her children won't go to bed hungry.

This is not something the middle class and wealthy even think about. They take the mortgage interest deduction or various corporate welfare money, which is as much a government handout as "food stamps," and don't feel any humiliation about it. They think they deserve it, and, like Ron Johnson, actually think they built something totally on their own. Projection is a horrible thing to witness. Look at all the Republican Members of Congress who want to cut food stamps. because "those people" cheat, but increase their and their families income through farm subsidies. The wealthy in this country are the real welfare queens.

So, Bludgeon projects the lack of morality common in the political class and at the upper income levels (with whom he identifies) onto others. And, sure, we all are human, and look for ways to get an edge. But anyone gaming SNAP could end up starving their own child. It doesn't happen much. But let the corporate elite cheat the system, and they rarely get anything but a slap on the wrist.

Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Detritus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:17 pm

Bludgeon wrote:In actuality most of you have yet to make a valid point, and have been doing nothing but sounding the typical partisan notes, not making the effort to anchor the same old, tired progressive doctrine to any tangible reality.

Asking again, Bludge, not for more invective and projection, but for a simple explanation: how does it work? I gave you some numbers from the USDA; you gave a number from "people you met at a party." Reconcile them for us, please.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 12812
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby snoqueen » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:19 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
...in this case that debate is about the integrity of our social welfare programs and the people on them.

...outside theory, in practice, it's not something that the politicians and the social workers and the government regulators are willing to stick their neck out to protect. And we really ought to be protecting the integrity of these programs for the people that need them. And it's not something partisans are willing to safeguard either.


Apparently you aren't willing to safeguard the integrity of the system either, since you know all these people who are gaming it and all you can think to do is complain on some message board.

I'm serious. If you had people smoking crack next door you'd complain, right? Then don't whine about people gaming the system and then refuse to do anything.

Social workers don't like to see people abuse the safety net because they are in a position to know how limited that net is and how many people need their legal access to it. Apparently you spend more time listening to (supposed) welfare cheats than to the professionals who are trying to help. Strive for some balance here and get a fuller picture.

What I think you are trying to say is one of two possibly very different things:

-- you don't think the social safety net actually helps people move up and out of need;

-- you are resentful that non-whites are getting help (at least as indicated by your listing of Madison streets).

I am not going to address the second item because it's deplorable and if the Republican party does not deal with it internally they are sending their own party to the recycle bin. That's a whole nother topic, unless you want to lump it in with "what's the matter with the GOP?"

The first issue is discussable. First, though, we need to set aside the elderly, disabled, sick, and others who are not able to be fully producing members of society without extra support. And we can perhaps agree children need extra support just so they can graduate from high school ready to be full participants in the economy, which means early childhood education, good nutrition, sex education, available birth control, child care, and the like are actually good investments not frivolities.

That means EITC for families with kids makes sense, so you'll want a robust and adequately funded IRS to ensure EITC and other tax-based supports are properly administered.

And we want an educated workforce, so technical education is a good investment.

People can't work if there are no jobs, so we want governmental policies that encourage job growth. Wisconsin is last among the states of the upper Midwest on that, so we need to look at what the others are doing and try to incorporate more of their ideas.

So what's left? Hardcore freeloaders do exist, though in many cases the cause, under examination, might be long-term depression or other mental illness. Jail doesn't help those people a lot, so let's try a cheaper alternative: treatment. Might work for a few people.

Now who's left? Career criminals (who do belong in the criminal justice system), addicts (ask the cops, they know more about it than I do), and true freeloaders, who might be part of a multi generational syndrome. I have no problem employing the stick part of carrot-and-stick when nothing else works. What about public works programs like cleaning streets and parks?

What have you got, then? More jails cost a whole lot and are nothing but crime schools and revolving door. Greyhound therapy pisses off the destination city and is not a solution long-term. Letting people starve in the cold is not a great idea. Let's hear your solutions.

If it's mostly about stricter enforcement of program restrictions and standards, I'm with ya. But it won't be cheap.

Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:08 pm

snoqueen wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:
...in this case that debate is about the integrity of our social welfare programs and the people on them.

...outside theory, in practice, it's not something that the politicians and the social workers and the government regulators are willing to stick their neck out to protect. And we really ought to be protecting the integrity of these programs for the people that need them. And it's not something partisans are willing to safeguard either.


Apparently you aren't willing to safeguard the integrity of the system either, since you know all these people who are gaming it and all you can think to do is complain on some message board.

Have you ever met a social worker? The line of separation between recipient and distributor is a matter of who's on the clock at the time. They frequently live in the same neighborhood, know the same people, and maybe even receive some of the same benefits (directly or by association). The ACORN video social workers are pretty typical of all social workers in the inner city, state office social workers included. They don't care about fraud, they live in fraud. Honestly there should actually be conflict of interest laws and policies about who you are able to approve benefits for if you are in the position to give them.

They gonna deny benefits to their cousin Jackie's next door neighbor? They gonna painstakingly verify that their aunt Reda's friend Agnes really has two adult dependents with that can validly be claimed in addition to three kids and a 'disabled' husband? By the time they have approved dubious benefit claims for this person for a few years, where do they find the will and the reason to stop? What is the disincentive? There is no disincentive. If anything, rubber stamping just makes their easy job easier. They don't need to meticulously verify - nobody's going to fire them; nobody's going to put these families out on the street for fraud. All these claimants really have to lose is the extra benefits they're falsifying reports to apply for. Their base levels are never seriously in question because no leftist like yourself would ever stand for any serious audit.

You want to sweep the Atticus neighborhoods and see who's really entitled to all that they're receiving 1. in their food stamps 2. in their SNAP cash benefit 3. their unthoroughly verified SSI claims 4. their $5000 EIC return that they receive citing fake cash income 5. free rent 6. free phones and 7. supplimented MG&E payments?

Sure, we'll see if the ACLU, the city, the Holder DOJ, the complicit media and fifteen other shut down organizations will let that happen.

"Safeguard the integrity of the system?"

Yeah, I called the MPD to ask if they followed up my my leads. Their response?
POLICEMAN wrote: Leads, yeah - sure. I'll uh just check with
the boys down at the Crime Lab.
They, ah, got, um, four more detectives
working on the case. They got us working in shifts.
[/laughter]

Image

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 12812
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby snoqueen » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:48 pm

You don't call the cops for that, silly.

Go here:

http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/

Home page of WI DHSS. On the main screen you'll fine a button to click, along with big red letters:

REPORT PUBLIC ASSISTANCE FRAUD

An 800 number is also given, and a place to file a complaint.

You didn't even try, did you?

Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Detritus » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:20 pm

Detritus wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:In actuality most of you have yet to make a valid point, and have been doing nothing but sounding the typical partisan notes, not making the effort to anchor the same old, tired progressive doctrine to any tangible reality.

Asking again, Bludge, not for more invective and projection, but for a simple explanation: how does it work? I gave you some numbers from the USDA; you gave a number from "people you met at a party." Reconcile them for us, please.

Really, Bludge, tell us how it works.

Donald
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2505
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:53 pm
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Donald » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:17 pm

Bludge is a freeloader. He sits around and posts complete nonsense on this blog. He refuses to work in anything productive, although he thinks spewing baseless opinion on this blog is "work." He gets paid from some righty non-profit group to do this. He doesn't connect that the pay he receives from this non-profit is actually fairly close to government welfare.

Bludge thinks doing the bidding of the corporate elite will get him a plumb job someday. He doesn't realize that the corporate types actually laugh at him. "He's a tool, a complete fool," they say. "We don't believe any of the shit he spews, but he's good at trying to divide people by class and race, and we need a horses ass like him to do it for us so we can keep power." (I know this because I overheard them.)

Bludge associates with these people, and looks up to them. They all have some sort of borderline personality disorder or otherwise mentally ill, but he doesn't recognize it because of his need to believe he can be one of them.

Bludge is a person who needs our sympathy and understanding. Once he cracks, he's going to need to access the mental health system and the social services system. Most of us here are striving to make sure Bludge will have that system available once the inevitable crack up comes.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 12812
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby snoqueen » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:01 pm

More seriously, I don't think Bludgie is a paid troll. (I thought some others on the forum are, or have been, over the years.) I've talked him down off more than one rhetorical ledge, and so have others here. He gets all worked up about some talking point he sees on TV or hears on talk radio, but given half a chance sometimes he'll examine things for himself and draw more reasonable conclusions.

I think he can do that on the welfare fraud topic too. Most people are reasonable, some are frauds, most programs are well-run, some are poorly designed or designed for unworthy ends. As taxpayers we want our funds to support the worthy and well-run ones. The "report fraud" button is right where it ought to be, and citizens are welcome to use it if they have evidence of fraud. I only wish whoever oversees our big financial institutions was that accessible.

Donald
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2505
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:53 pm
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Donald » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:14 pm

snoqueen wrote:More seriously...

Yeah, I agree. No one would pay Bludgy for the tripe he puts out here. I don't have the patience that Sno does for the kind of hate and ignorance that comes so naturally to Bludgy. His sort of bullying by blog of those who are misfortunate is reprehensible, the kind of thing that fascists are historically known for. He's a typical righty coward who disparages people a little different from himself, so he can feel superior. I've never, ever been able to reason with those folks.

Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:43 pm

Donald wrote:
snoqueen wrote:More seriously...

Yeah, I agree. No one would pay Bludgy for the tripe he puts out here. I don't have the patience that Sno does for the kind of hate and ignorance that comes so naturally to Bludgy. His sort of bullying by blog of those who are misfortunate is reprehensible, the kind of thing that fascists are historically known for. He's a typical righty coward who disparages people a little different from himself, so he can feel superior. I've never, ever been able to reason with those folks.

So far I've yet to see any evidence that you're able to reason, period. Are you related to the mentally challenged Stebben84? Because he's also a clumsy, hapless dimwit who has trouble finding the light switch. All your assumptions about me are way completely off the mark to the extent they really don't dignify a response other than to lament the fact that Snow seems not to notice how delusional your flailings are, which is a shame. What do I "hate"? I honestly think it's funny. For all the posers riffing on about how "Republicans" are supposed to have a problem with people who are "a little different", in actuality the one thing that's obvious from all your responses is that I spend more time with and talk to more black people on a regular daily and weekly basis than any of you. Other than pointing out that it's not just minorities who are defrauding these programs, the thing that sticks out like a sore nose is that if all you 'happening' progs had more diversity in your own lives, you would know that it's not even any kind of serious question that fraud is rampant in all these programs, in this city as well as every other, in dozens of neighborhoods from north to south to east to west. Nobody would even see the point of wasting the time to deny it.

pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 6563
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby pjbogart » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:51 pm

Yawn. I said it, Sno said it. If you're unhappy about the fraud you could always do something about it. If you don't then it appears that you're just making stuff up. I don't doubt for a minute that there is fraud in social programs, but your littany of complaints seems more like racism than genuine concern about government spending. I get it, you have a problem with Atticus Way. Nice apartments built to house those displaced by Allied Drive reconstruction. Getting stiffed by the first-of-the-monthers? What's your beef?

I'm not a "progressive" or a "liberal" because I'm some dewy-eyed idealist. But as Donald and basically every other progressive on this forum has pointed out on numerous occasions, your anger is misplaced and frankly, irrational. Black woman defrauds the government and buys some lobster tails? Outrageous! White guy makes a billion dollars selling fraudulent derivatives? Smart dude!

People would take you more seriously if you showed a little consistency. As it is, you seem more concerned about black folks gaming the system than white folks outright robbing it.

Sandi
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2497
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: Repubs (and Dems) show compassion by cutting food stamps

Postby Sandi » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:13 pm

Bludgeon wrote:So far I've yet to see any evidence that you're able to reason, period.


You won't.

That is why they continue to attack you personally with fervor. Can't attack the message, so attack the messenger.

They are bankrupt on defending the welfare state.


Return to “National Politics & Government”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests