Obamacare hiccup

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Henry Vilas
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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:35 am

Scott Walker is continuing to do his damndest to discourage people from taking advantage of "Obamacare."

With just six weeks until sign ups begin for the new online health insurance marketplaces in Wisconsin, regulators have yet to release any details about what plans will be offered or how much they will cost.

Advocates of the President Barack Obama's Affordable Care Act are raising concerns about the lack of information and what ultimately will be released by Gov. Scott Walker's administration.

Walker is an ardent opponent of the federal health care law and has repeatedly called for it to be repealed. He also declined to have the state set up its own marketplace to sell private insurance under the law, instead deferring to the federal government.

Walker's administration has released names of companies on the exchange, but no details about rates or plans.

All part of the Republican plan to sabotage health care reform.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:20 pm

rabble wrote:Unions are a symptom of mismanagement. We only need them when the bosses are assholes.


GMTA, right?

I've been saying, doing and teaching that since the 70s.
Even here:

I do think management has a responsibility, which they often don't live up to, to make unions unnecessary. I think that is the real solution.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=56757&p=714576&hilit=union+henry#p714576

I've always felt that unions are almost always caused by bad management.

Good workplaces with good management, have no need for unions.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=56757&p=714215&hilit=union+henry#p714215


On the other hand, I hear lots of people, almost always non-employees, say that Walmart should be unionized. And they have very high employee satisfaction.

Progressives have also been saying for 100 or more years that everybody should be a member of a union regardless of how well or poorly they were treated on the job.

So glad to hear that you agree with me that one of managements key focuses must be to make unions unnecessary.

John Henry

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
The chain as we know it today started in 1985. That's when Long and other employees negotiated a buyout, making it an employee-owned company.



Bingo, we have a winner!

Do you think the fact that the employees own the company has something to do with their pay and benefits?

They bought the company, paid good money and now they own it.

Since they are not stupid, they will keep costs, which are tax deductible, up and profits, which are not, down.

If they take their return on investment in higher wages, that is taxed once, as personal income.

If they take it in the form of a health plan, that is not taxed at all. It is a deductible expense to Winco and not income to the employee.

If they took profits out, it would be taxed twice, once as corporate income and again as personal income.

Seems like what Walmart, McD, Burger King and other employees need to do is buy their companies. They are all public, all it would take would be money. Just like Winco.

UPS used to be employee owned with only 23,000 stockholders as late as the 90s. They did go public after the employees went on strike. Now anybody can own them.

We could talk about some of the issues with being an employee at an employee owned company if you like. I think it is overall probably a good thing but there are some minuses too.

John Henry

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Stebben84 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:16 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Do you think the fact that the employees own the company has something to do with their pay and benefits?


Most definitely. There is no greedy fuck in the mix to screw things up.

johnfajardohenry wrote:On the other hand, I hear lots of people, almost always non-employees, say that Walmart should be unionized. And they have very high employee satisfaction.


According to Walmart of course

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby pjbogart » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:16 pm

Oh, that's rich. You refute a brilliant observation by John Henry by posting an article from a pro-Union website? Did you know that "In These Times" is actually a front group for Huma Abedin's secret organization within Hillary Clinton's Presidential exploratory committee that's plotting to use helicopters to create Muslim tornadoes that will destroy towns with Republican Mayors, not to mention that they've been buying futures on agricultural markets to manipulate the price of bacon? Did you know that? I bet you didn't.

I understand that you're willing to live in a cave, completely ignoring the fact that Barack Obama actually resigned over a year ago, handing over the reins of our government to a prominent young socialist, who is actually Adolph Hitler disguised as a glowing cat. This was clearly proved by Andrew Breitbart's ghost as he was researching retinal scanners installed on every telephone pole in the United States, which is why it's a good idea to move to Puerto Rico, where only half of the telephone poles have retinal scanners.

Live in la-la land all you want, Stebben. John's looking out for you, exposing the plots to take away your bacon. Literally.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:01 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Progressives have also been saying for 100 or more years that everybody should be a member of a union regardless of how well or poorly they were treated on the job.

So glad to hear that you agree with me that one of managements key focuses must be to make unions unnecessary.

John Henry


Do you really believe the sweeping generalizations you make? This is a completely false right wing talking point. Unlike conservatives, who don't seem to remember any history at all, the vast majority of progressives know exactly where unions came from, how they came to be and why they continue to be necessary.

I've never met a union supporter who believed a union was anything other than a hedge against bad management.

Do you really believe management's goal should be to make unions unnecessary, and not just illegal? American business disagrees with you.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:35 am

pjbogart wrote:Oh, that's rich. You refute a brilliant observation by John Henry by posting an article from a pro-Union website?


Are they really pro-union?

They seem much more like socialists. Somewhere to the left of Mother Jones. Founded by a trust-fund "socialist", as he apparently called himself.

I love the concept of rich socialists. I love it even more when they did not even create their wealth but inherited it. In NYC real estate, no less!

Yeah, I'll take this report with a grain of salt. Several in fact.

As should you.

John Henry

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:49 am

wack wack wrote:Unlike conservatives, who don't seem to remember any history at all, the vast majority of progressives know exactly where unions came from, how they came to be and why they continue to be necessary.


I know exactly where unions came from and why they were necessary. Probably know more union history than you do after teaching it for 22 years.

As for sweeping generalizations, weren't you the one who made it? I was just agreeing with you and pointing out that I had been agreeing with you for 40 years or more.

Do you really believe management's goal should be to make unions unnecessary, and not just illegal? American business disagrees with you.


I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of an worker's right to unionize. I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of a worker's right to strike (Absent a contract agreement not to. Even then I still favor their right to strike over contract violations)

I think many unions serve valuable functions beyond being a hedge against bad management (which is itself a valuable function) Craft unions run training programs, as we discussed a few notes ago about apprenticeships. Craft unions provide employment services, hiring halls, for their members. Many unions provide valuable health, life and other insurance to their members.

I think unions do "Provide a hedge against bad management" even in non-unionized companies. I think the threat, even a remote threat, of unionization helps keep management from getting complacent.

I am even, sort of, against right to work laws. At the very least non-members should pay the equivalent of dues for representational services. What is called agency shop. I do think unions should have to stand for re-certification elections regularly, perhaps every 5 years. I think that might do away with some of the RTW objections.

As for American business wanting to make unions illegal, that sounds like a strawman to me. Can you point to some examples? They don't even have to be recent, anything in the past 20-30 years will be fine.

Not about govt workers unions. I do think they should be illegal and will be happy to discuss reasons why if you like.

John Henry

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:55 am

So if Winco is such a good model, Stebben, why would you not advise Walmart, or McD employees to follow it?

That is, buy the company and pay the profits to themselves in wages and benefits.

I am not saying Winco is not a good model. I think employee ownership is generally a good thing. Not entirely without problems but generally good.

Just curious why you are silent on wanting to see it applied at some of the companies that are being complained about here.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:58 am

One other valuable function that unions often serve is the social function. Similar to Elks or Lions Clubs or the like.

I think this may be more important than many people realize. Not the primary function of a union, of course, but a valuable on nonetheless.

John Henry

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby peripat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:06 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:[

Not about govt workers unions. I do think they should be illegal and will be happy to discuss reasons why if you like.

John Henry


Curious. It seems to me government workers need unions more than anyone else, just because the balance of power is so one sided when the government is the employer...not so much to bargain salary- though unions can to some extent prevent politicians from giving 10% or even 100% raises to their loyal backers. I know the trend for years has been to move more and more civil service jobs out of union coverage, and being able to appoint and reward political hacks has certainly been a great part of the reason.
But workers who are not political need to be protected from politics (what party you belong to, who you supported determines whether or not you keep your job)- and unions are about the only way to do that. The alternative to unions for government jobs is to treat every new administration as the winner of a coup d'etat- everything changes when someone new comes in. You may think that is fine, I don't.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Stebben84 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:18 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:So if Winco is such a good model, Stebben, why would you not advise Walmart, or McD employees to follow it?


I think it would great if employees could own these companies, but I don't see that happening. Winco was a smaller company when they purchased it and I think the founder was willing to sell. I don't see the Walton family selling anytime soon.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby snoqueen » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:38 am

And if you're suggesting the employees become owners by buying a share or two of stock, I'm laughing at you. The obvious thing to do when you're making $9 or $11 an hour is buy stock.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:25 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Probably know more union history than you do after teaching it for 22 years.


Oh great, a pissing contest! You win, John.

johnfajardohenry wrote:As for sweeping generalizations, weren't you the one who made it?


Nope.

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Do you really believe management's goal should be to make unions unnecessary, and not just illegal? American business disagrees with you.


I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of an worker's right to unionize. I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of a worker's right to strike (Absent a contract agreement not to. Even then I still favor their right to strike over contract violations)

I think many unions serve valuable functions beyond being a hedge against bad management (which is itself a valuable function) Craft unions run training programs, as we discussed a few notes ago about apprenticeships. Craft unions provide employment services, hiring halls, for their members. Many unions provide valuable health, life and other insurance to their members.

I think unions do "Provide a hedge against bad management" even in non-unionized companies. I think the threat, even a remote threat, of unionization helps keep management from getting complacent.

I am even, sort of, against right to work laws. At the very least non-members should pay the equivalent of dues for representational services. What is called agency shop. I do think unions should have to stand for re-certification elections regularly, perhaps every 5 years. I think that might do away with some of the RTW objections.

As for American business wanting to make unions illegal, that sounds like a strawman to me. Can you point to some examples? They don't even have to be recent, anything in the past 20-30 years will be fine.

Not about govt workers unions. I do think they should be illegal and will be happy to discuss reasons why if you like.

John Henry


All those words but you didn't answer the question: Do you really believe management's goal should be to make unions unnecessary, and not just illegal?

Hint: a proper answer won't spend several paragraphs explaining what you think about unions; the issue is management.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:32 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:So if Winco is such a good model, Stebben, why would you not advise Walmart, or McD employees to follow it?

That is, buy the company and pay the profits to themselves in wages and benefits.

I am not saying Winco is not a good model. I think employee ownership is generally a good thing. Not entirely without problems but generally good.

Just curious why you are silent on wanting to see it applied at some of the companies that are being complained about here.

John Henry


How would you suggest the employees go about pursuing this model?

I'm not speaking for Stebben, but it seems the silence would rest on impracticality more than anything. Is the Walton family going to sell out to its employees?


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