Obamacare hiccup

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Henry Vilas
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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:22 pm

It goes far beyond Mickey Dee's or other fast food jobs:

New Jobs Disproportionately Low-Pay or Part-Time

Henry Vilas
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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:03 pm

I see some of the crazies in Congress want to shut down the entire government over health care reform. Even Paul Ryan says those fellow Republicans have gone too far.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:15 pm

Sandi wrote:people one day just decide that they want to have a career at McDonalds?


Ray Kroc, who made McDonalds what it is today, gave a great interview back in the 70's or so.

At the time there was a clamor to give retirement benefits to his workers. Perhaps other benefits as well but retirement is the one I specifically remember.

He said something to the effect that if someone was planning on working in McDonalds long enough to retire, he did not want to hire them in the first place.

If they had so little ambition as to be satisfied to spend their lives as counter help, he thought they would make lousy employees and suggested they work for Burger King or the like.

He wanted people who he could promote to managers or other career positions or who would use their McDonalds experience to go find better jobs elsewhere.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever worked in a McDonalds?

I did, for a month or so, back in about 1965. Then I went to a Hardees and stayed there about 6 months till I graduated HS.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:27 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:It goes far beyond Mickey Dee's or other fast food jobs:

New Jobs Disproportionately Low-Pay or Part-Time


Might part of that be that jobs that pay better are having a hard time finding qualified applicants?

I go all over the country and I hear this all the time. People tell me that they can't find PLC programmers, industrial electricians, mechanics, welders and other skilled craft positions.

I was at WITC in New Richmond in March and they had already placed all their June graduates from the packaging mechanic program at $50-100m per year. Remember, these are people graduating with little or no industry experience. How many 4 year degree programs can do this?

I've done a lot of work over the past 7 years for a company near Chicago that has been down 6 shop mechanics for almost all that time. This is a job that starts at $75,000 plus a great benefit package and they just can't hire enough.

I was in Ohio last month in a food plant and the Maintenance dept was having the same problem.

It is not a question of pay. Pay is pretty good for these positions.

It is not a question of applicants. They get plenty of applicants.

It is a question of qualified applicants for skilled jobs.

Most of my knowledge comes from manufacturing but I understand that the situation is similar in other industries as well.

As for unskilled jobs, why should anyone hire full time workers given the penalty that Obamacare imposes for doing that? It makes no sense at all to do so. It makes no sense at all to expect any business to do so.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:31 pm

wack wack wrote:$22/hr


And what do you, Wack Wack, tell the person whose labor is not worth $22 per hour but might be worth $10.

"Sorry, you can't work. Go fuck yourself."

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:47 pm

wack wack wrote:$22/hr


McDonalds is already automating like crazy. For example, they no longer draw cokes by hand. When the register enters an order for a medium coke, a cup drops in a puck on a carousel, automatically gets ice and the soda.

French fries are getting more and more automated.

And so on.

Burger King (and perhaps McDonalds and other chains) take your drive through order in Ohio. Pull up to the kiosk, place your order and a person in Ohio types it in and it appears on the screen in the restaurant where you are.

McDonalds has cut average crew size in half and doubled the amount of sales per crew member. Without making the crew members work any harder.

It might cost $100,000 for a machine to cook hamburgers automatically. Currently an employee, costing $20-25m per year is doing that so, given multiple shifts and so on, figure they are paying 60-$75m for the burger flipper. At the moment it may not pay to automate that.

Raise the cost of the burger flippers to $120-$150m/yr and it starts to look reasonable. And, the cost of the automation is coming down all the time as well.

There is no, none, zero, technical reason why an entire McDonalds restaurant could not be automated. There would probably still be a need for a skilled technician to keep everything working right and that job might cost $200-250,000 per year. Still cheaper and a lot less hassle than the 40-50 employees currently in the restaurant.

The economics are the problem. But as cost of employees goes up and cost of automation goes down, at some point no employees at all becomes feasible.

Other than the skilled repairperson.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Huckleby » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:45 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote: As for unskilled jobs, why should anyone hire full time workers given the penalty that Obamacare imposes for doing that? It makes no sense at all to do so. It makes no sense at all to expect any business to do so.


This is wrong-headed in so many ways, where to start?

Obamacare is imposing zero penalties on businesses in 2014, yet the drumbeat from the right is unabated. FOX keeps reporting on businesses reducing hours, blames Obamacare. Companies have been trending to forcing people into part-time for 20 years.

BTW, the employee penalty for Obamacare is something like $1500, and this is for companies with 50 full-timers who are typically being irresponsible by not offering benefits. I realize there are some exceptions. My personal opinion is that the employer mandate should be permanently canceled, perhaps it will be, but lets hold the crocodile tears.

The larger point: you just got done ranting that low wages are fine for workers - fair is what the market will bear. Now we learn that you are also against a plan for the government to bolster these low wage earners with health care access.

Right wingers are willfully ignorant and cruelly calloused towards the working poor. This ridiculous rationalization that the people in low wage jobs are typically moving-on-up (otherwise it's their own fault) is stomach turning. Ya, their are success stories, but the statistics don't lie: there's very limited economic mobility in the U.S.A.

It's immoral to have a society where anybody doesn't have access to decent health care. The good news is that the Neandrathals are losing, progress is difficult but steady.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Sandi » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:43 am

Huckleby wrote:Obamacare is imposing zero penalties on businesses in 2014, yet the drumbeat from the right is unabated. FOX keeps reporting on businesses reducing hours, blames Obamacare. Companies have been trending to forcing people into part-time for 20 years.


No penalties because Obama postponed the mandate (which he has no authority to do), knowing it could cause a 2014 republican takeover in the Sentate. Just because there have been more part time jobs over the last 20 years, you cannot use that to cover the administrations ass when companies cut back full time workers to under 50. Apples and oranges.

Huckleby wrote:BTW, the employee penalty for Obamacare is something like $1500, and this is for companies with 50 full-timers who are typically being irresponsible by not offering benefits. I realize there are some exceptions. My personal opinion is that the employer mandate should be permanently canceled, perhaps it will be, but lets hold the crocodile tears.


Right, which is why some bigger companies will pay the fine instead of offering healthcare. You say companies are irresponsible for not offering benefits, but hold that mandating it should be cancelled.

Huckleby wrote:The larger point: you just got done ranting that low wages are fine for workers - fair is what the market will bear. Now we learn that you are also against a plan for the government to bolster these low wage earners with health care access.


The increase in wage cost may not get them healthcare, it could destroy many lower wage business' and put the employees out of work entirely.

Huckleby wrote:...there's very limited economic mobility in the U.S.A.


Not for those that have ambition and drive to better themselves. There are good paying jobs that go unfilled because there are not enough skilled workers. There are probably more openings for skilled labor of the tech college type than for those that graduate with a degree.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby DCB » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:01 am

Sandi wrote:No penalties because Obama postponed the mandate (which he has no authority to do),

Wow - is that like God creating a rock so heavy He can't lift it?

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Sandi » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:24 am

DCB wrote:
Sandi wrote:No penalties because Obama postponed the mandate (which he has no authority to do),

Wow - is that like God creating a rock so heavy He can't lift it?


No, the rock isn't heavy at all.

Congress passed the Affordable Care act, which became law and the start date, which became law.

Obama is sworn to uphold the laws. If a president does not want the law to be implicated on the date that congress passed, he is required to ask congress to change it.

What would your opinion be if congress raised the minimum wage $1 with an effective date starting 2014, and the president decided to delay it for a year?

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:55 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:I go all over the country and I hear this all the time. People tell me that they can't find PLC programmers, industrial electricians, mechanics, welders and other skilled craft positions....It is not a question of pay. Pay is pretty good for these positions. It is not a question of applicants. They get plenty of applicants. It is a question of qualified applicants for skilled jobs.
Maybe the type of people that have what it takes to aquire these skills are reluctant to persue a career in manufacturing after watching the misery and anguish of their parents, who once had good paying manufacturing careers, but have found themselves out in the cold in the prime of their life through no fault of their own.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby rabble » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:12 am

Stella_Guru wrote: Maybe the type of people that have what it takes to aquire these skills are reluctant to persue a career in manufacturing after watching the misery and anguish of their parents, who once had good paying manufacturing careers, but have found themselves out in the cold in the prime of their life through no fault of their own.

That's part of it. Another reason, and in my own opinion the larger one, is that companies cut staff to bare bones, downsizing the "teacher" employees and not doing any entry level hiring. This put them in the position of not having the infrastructure to take applicants who aren't fully qualified and train them.

Now we're approaching the time when all those unqualified applicants who got hired and trained should be taking over the reins from the ones who trained them and are moving on, and that batch isn't there.

We lost them in the downsizing, we don't have the resources to train them any more and everybody's looking for people who are already trained. Except we never trained any.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:33 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
wack wack wrote:$22/hr


And what do you, Wack Wack, tell the person whose labor is not worth $22 per hour but might be worth $10.

"Sorry, you can't work. Go fuck yourself."

John Henry


There is no such thing as a person whose labor is worth $10 but not $22.

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:35 am

Sandi wrote:
Galoot wrote:Sandi, go ahead and explain the difference between "median" and "average". I think you will soon find that the average age will be much higher than 32, unless we have millions of 5 year olds working at McDonald's.


Well I really don't care whether the average is 5, 32 or 50. It is an entry level job regardless of age. Or do you think people one day just decide that they want to have a career at McDonalds?


Again, entry level to what?

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Re: Obamacare hiccup

Postby wack wack » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:43 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:It goes far beyond Mickey Dee's or other fast food jobs:

New Jobs Disproportionately Low-Pay or Part-Time


Might part of that be that jobs that pay better are having a hard time finding qualified applicants?


Nope, complete canard. It is no harder to find qualified applicants than it ever was, as the mythical "fully qualified" candidate has always been a rare commodity. The problem is that businesses no longer believe they have any responsibility in educating their own employees. "On the job training" doesn't exist anymore, business is too important for that.


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