The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Ned Flanders
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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Ned Flanders » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:32 pm

Huckleby wrote:I don't think the holdup is pathway to citizenship, exactly. The Republicans are actually a level more anal than this: they don't want to even offer legal status until they get everything they want, verified to their standards.

In other words, they want to keep deporting until the impossible task of "sealing the border" has been certified by their house majority.

There ain't gonna be any deal. The most moderate 14 Republican senators are not representative of the Republican party.

I think they want the current federal laws to be enforced. Yeah, racist-crazy, I know.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:18 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:
Huckleby wrote:I don't think the holdup is pathway to citizenship, exactly. The Republicans are actually a level more anal than this: they don't want to even offer legal status until they get everything they want, verified to their standards.

In other words, they want to keep deporting until the impossible task of "sealing the border" has been certified by their house majority.

There ain't gonna be any deal. The most moderate 14 Republican senators are not representative of the Republican party.

I think they want the current federal laws to be enforced. Yeah, racist-crazy, I know.

Because laws have never been racist, right?

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:24 pm

Ned Flanders wrote: I think they want the current federal laws to be enforced. Yeah, racist-crazy, I know.


If you view the issue very narrowly, yes, the far right would like 11 million immigrants rounded-up and deported. That is the logic of enforcing the federal law.

But it's much more complicated. Many people, especially those who value facts, see immigration as good for the country, and that people have been lured here like immigrants of all past generations - to live and work. So deportation-for-all seems inhumane and stupid.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Roy » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:48 pm

Huckleby wrote:If you view the issue very narrowly, yes, the far right would like 11 million immigrants rounded-up and deported.

But it's much more complicated. Many people, especially those who value facts, see immigration as good for the country, and that people have been lured here like immigrants of all past generations - to live and work. So deportation-for-all seems inhumane and stupid.


If you don't understand the problem, it is pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion. Sure you can find someone who wants all illegal immigrants deported. While they are testable inhumane people, it is such a small number to not be worth talking about. And yes immigration is good for the country, as long as it is controlled and we know who comes here. Illegal immigration is not ever good.

The real problem is political, not what you, or I, or anyone else wants. Neither party wants to stop illegal immigration. The Republicans take the money from the business lobby that want the illegals here for the cheap labor. The democrats, assume most Hispanic vote democrat and want them here a prospective future votes.

That is why Shumer/Rubio only pays lip service to border security. It will add 11 to 30 million to the workforce over the next ten years will hurt an already struggling job market: especially unskilled lower paying jobs. While doing nothing to stop the flow of more illegal entry.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:59 pm

Sandi wrote: Illegal immigration is not ever good.

It's not ideal, but I would argue that illegal immigration has been a net benefit to our country, and it's not even close.

I agree that not many people on the right want to round-up and deport 11 million people. But they aren't exactly opposed to it either. Many think "self deportation" might just do the job over time if things are miserable enough for immigrants.
I only mention the deportation reality in response to the "just enforce the laws" bumper sticker thinking from your comrade.

Sandi wrote:The democrats, assume most Hispanic vote democrat and want them here a prospective future votes.
Not really. I mean, illegal immigrants don't vote. I don't want people coming here illegally. I want more realist limits on legal immigration, and amnesty for the 11 million who are here.

BTW, I was listening to Republican Congressman Labrador on Sunday. He is angry that the guest worker program is too small in the current bill. He said we will never be able to stop the flow of illegals unless we radically expand the number of guests.

Think about that for a second! It is an open admission that Republican are anti-legal immigration. If there is demand for more people to work, why don't we just open our doors to more new Americans?

Sandi wrote:That is why Shumer/Rubio only pays lip service to border security. It will add 11 to 30 million to the workforce over the next ten years will hurt an already struggling job market: especially unskilled lower paying jobs. While doing nothing to stop the flow of more illegal entry.

Honestly, border security is a red herring. Everybody is fine with border security, Democrats are just more realistic in admitting that it will do little to control overall flow in people into country.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Roy » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:13 pm

Huckleby wrote:I only mention the deportation reality in response to the "just enforce the laws" bumper sticker thinking from your comrade.


If a few employers who hire illegal immigrants did the perp walk in orange fatigues, we would not get so many coming here illegally.

Huckleby wrote:Not really. I mean, illegal immigrants don't vote. I don't want people coming here illegally. I want more realist limits on legal immigration, and amnesty for the 11 million who are here.


Yes, my point exactly. Shumer/Rubio gives illegals here a path to citizenship. I.E. the vote. I have no problem with a path to citizenship, only the reason for it, and with no plans to reduce illegal immigration in the future. We would still be addressing the same problem again in 10-20 years.

Huckleby wrote:Think about that for a second! It is an open admission that Republican are anti-legal immigration. If there is demand for more people to work, why don't we just open our doors to more new Americans?


That is so false it deserves no response.

Huckleby wrote:Honestly, border security is a red herring. Everybody is fine with border security, Democrats are just more realistic in admitting that it will do little to control overall flow in people into country.


Last I checked, over 80 percent of the public were not ok with current border security. And it isn't just border security, it is eliminating the work that draws illegals here to begin with. As I said above, a few employers need to do the perp walk and pay huge fines.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:53 pm

Sandi wrote:
Huckleby wrote:I only mention the deportation reality in response to the "just enforce the laws" bumper sticker thinking from your comrade.


If a few employers who hire illegal immigrants did the perp walk in orange fatigues, we would not get so many coming here illegally.

That was proposed in the waning days of the Doyle administration. Republicans pulled a parliamentary trick to stop the bill. The bill was opposed by our dairy industry as well as the WMC. They lobbied the Repubs very hard.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:57 pm

Farmers and orchardists in many states (Michigan was the latest I read about) are extremely concerned they will not be able to harvest their crops this year due to a shortage of migrant workers they've relied upon in the past. There's no way for them to hire enough local workers. They've worked with migrants for many years without legal complications. If you've lived right around here and had your eyes and ears open, you could remember migrant workers doing seasonal field work going clear back to the 1960s if not earlier.

This is just one example of an industry that needs these workers. I see nothing to be gained by sacrificing these perfectly good small businesses by forcing their owners to do a "perp walk." Migrant and low-wage workers are part of our existing economy and to suddenly cut them off will have serious negative repercussions and, at the same time, result in very few new jobs for other Americans.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Roy » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:42 pm

snoqueen wrote:Farmers and orchardists in many states (Michigan was the latest I read about) are extremely concerned they will not be able to harvest their crops this year due to a shortage of migrant workers they've relied upon in the past. There's no way for them to hire enough local workers. They've worked with migrants for many years without legal complications. If you've lived right around here and had your eyes and ears open, you could remember migrant workers doing seasonal field work going clear back to the 1960s if not earlier.


.Oh no! The farmers will be forced watch their crops rot because they won’t pay the going market rate for labor to pick the low value, over planted crops.

That they won't be able to harvest their crops is a lie.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:24 pm

Sandi wrote: The farmers will be forced watch their crops rot because they won’t pay the going market rate for labor to pick the low value, over planted crops.

That they won't be able to harvest their crops is a lie.

Most farmers well tell you, myself included, that you can pay an American significantly above the going rate for farm labor and it still won't make much of a difference. The fact is most Americans consider farm field work beneath them, and either refuse to do it or don't last long if they try. Generally immigrants will work harder and rarely quit until the job is done.
Last edited by Stella_Guru on Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Mad Howler » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:31 pm

Sandi wrote:.Oh no! The farmers will be forced watch their crops rot because they won’t pay the going market rate for labor to pick the low value, over planted crops.

That they won't be able to harvest their crops is a lie.


.Dude, this is not twitter.

I remember this going on in Georgia a year or so ago with some berry crop. I thought, hey, what the hell? I thought the neocon's are all about cheap labor. Then I realized they are, and saw the brilliance of this subterfuge.
1. You got Sno bitching about the flip-flop among republican legislators calling for employers being punished for employing 'illegals', which I am fine with.
2. Michigan's mostly corporate controlled state legislature steering wages toward some global benchmark corporations have already accounted for.
3. I get the sneaking suspicion, at some point you and I are intended to be greatful for the opportunity to work those fields.

I do not like what I am seeing.
Sadly, these actions are so structurally hardwired at this point that there seems little to hold these actors accountable.

Anyhow, that is how I am seeing this right now.


MH

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby HawkHead » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:54 pm

MH-

It was 2011 in Georgia.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/20 ... backfires/

Above is an article from Forbes.

From the article:

Despite high unemployment in the state, most Georgians don’t want such back-breaking jobs, nor do they have the necessary skills. According to Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Grower’s Association, immigrants “are pretty much professional harvesters” with many specializing in particular crops.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Roy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:58 am

Mad Howler wrote:Dude, this is not twitter


I'm trying to decide if twitter deserves an apology.

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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:23 am

Sandi wrote:
Mad Howler wrote:Dude, this is not twitter


I'm trying to decide if twitter deserves an apology.


Interesting that you chose to pluck the twitter functional punctuation out-

Mad Howler wrote:.Dude, this is not twitter

See the posts above

Whatever, I was not looking for any apology.

Roy
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Re: The GOP, gay rights and immigration

Postby Roy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:33 am

Mad Howler wrote:
Sandi wrote:
Mad Howler wrote:Dude, this is not twitter


I'm trying to decide if twitter deserves an apology.


Interesting that you chose to pluck the twitter functional punctuation out-

Mad Howler wrote:.Dude, this is not twitter

See the posts above

Whatever, I was not looking for any apology.


Sorry, my bad. I do not tweet. I had an account and used it once, but found it a poor way to communicate.


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