NSA spying on everyone, everything

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
wack wack
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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby wack wack » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:54 am

"Reading comprehension" demands that the reading material be comprehensible.

PJ did an amazing job working through pure garbage.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:02 am

wack wack wrote:"Reading comprehension" demands that the reading material be comprehensible.

PJ did an amazing job working through pure garbage.

Image

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby jman111 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:19 am

Other times, not so much.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:44 am

snoqueen wrote: Just because a lot of folks inferred or assumed it was going on doesn't mean we were properly notified. Several administrations, not just the current one, have overdone the secrecy thing and in that way lost potential public support.

Why yes, afterall President Obama is just addressing another campaign promise. There is no hypocrisy here. He said he was going to end Bush's "illegal wiretapping", and he has by making it "legal". All of you unenlightened idiots got a problem with that?

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Stella_Guru wrote:He said he was going to end Bush's "illegal wiretapping", and he has by making it "legal".


Is this in reference to the current NSA dust up? Unless I missed something, there was no reference to wiretapping, just collecting of phone numbers.

I don't like either, but there isn't jack shit I can do about it. My vote is the only thing that really counts and I don't think there is any candidate out there who would stop this type of intrusion. I don't even think Rand Paul could actually stop it if elected. It's all lip service.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:59 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Stella_Guru wrote:He said he was going to end Bush's "illegal wiretapping", and he has by making it "legal".


Is this in reference to the current NSA dust up? Unless I missed something, there was no reference to wiretapping, just collecting of phone numbers.

I'm sorry, I was refering to PRISM but I see James Big Brother Clapper has cleared it all up. And, he wouldn't lie would he?

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby DCB » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:17 pm

Stella_Guru wrote:I'm sorry, I was refering to PRISM but I see James Big Brother Clapper has cleared it all up. And, he wouldn't lie would he?


You mean this guy?
"I responded in what I thought was the most truthful, or least untruthful, manner by saying 'no,'" Clapper told NBC News on Sunday.

The guy reeks of sincerity!

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Wesmon » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:06 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Why Americans Don’t Fear the NSA

When it comes to protecting us from terrorists, we trust our government will do the right thing.
...
Polling suggests the distinction people draw is between the narrow targeting of suspects versus targeting the broader public.
...
If the public is not outraged, it may very well be because they trust these lawmakers when they say these measures are necessary to stop terrorism. That's an aberration from the normal public attitude where more than three-quarters of Americans tell pollsters they don't trust government.


Depressing, but not surprising.

Funny how these same policies were never popular with the East German people when imposed on them by the Stasi.

I guess we are just better trained seals.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby wack wack » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:47 am

Wesmon wrote:I guess we are just better trained seals.


Perhaps we've finally realized that our "representatives" are entirely owned by the oligarchy; fighting the corporate overlords is futile.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Detritus » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:09 am

Given that the majority of the US media seems to be reporting the story in terms of "sad but necessary--now let's tighten up on the leakers," I'm not surprised. European media seem to be a lot more alarmed, and reported aspects not found here. Compare the Guardian (which broke the story) with the NYT, which has already demoted the story below the fold. So to what extent is Pew reported reality, and to what extent are they simply assessing the success of a PR program?

Also, the Pew poll was another of those telephone polls. We know those disproportionately include older, more affluent people--folks still using landlines. A poll like that may produce useable results for some questions, but I wonder how accurate it is for this one, which requires greater exposure to social media etc. to appreciate beyond the "we're not listening to your phone calls" meme.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:29 am

Stebben84 wrote:Is this in reference to the current NSA dust up? Unless I missed something, there was no reference to wiretapping, just collecting of phone numbers.


Quite so. technically, since we are mostly talking about emails and cellphones, there are no wires to tap.

Just as Obie was factually correct when he said Friday that nobody was "listening" to all conversations. After all, if a computer picks up the conversation and scans it for suspicious info there is never any audio for anyone to "listen" to.

The US and Britain have been doing this since the Clinton years. At least since 93-94 or so. At that time it was called "Echelon". Under Echelon, the Brits would intercept US communications, which we legally could not do. We would do the same with British communications, which they could not do. We would then share the information with each other.

So we were not "spying on American citizens" if you wanted to be technically correct. The Brits were doing it for us and the result was the same but Clinton & Gore could deny it with a straight face.

It was probably being done under Bush I as well. Don't forget Bush was CIA head before becoming VP and Prez.

If you are at all interested in how the NSA works, 2 good books are James Bamford's "The Puzzle Palace" (1983) written over the objections and without cooperation of the NSA. His 2003 book "Body of Secrets" was written with NSA cooperation and is also excellent.

I also see that he has a 2009 book on NSA since 9/11 called "The Shadow Factory" I'll have to put that on my reading list.

Another interesting book for background on encryption/decryption, capturing data and so on is David Kahn's "The Code Breakers" He does tend to get into some heavy duty math in places but you can skip over those parts without losing much. Ignore the math and the book is very readable for the average lay person who wants to learn a bit about the subject.

John Henry

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby wack wack » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:04 pm

Boehner Calls Snowden a Traitor

Again, how is someone who exposes the behavior of the American government to the American people a traitor?

He added: “The disclosure of this information puts Americans at risk. It shows our adversaries what our capabilities are. And it’s a giant violation of the law.”


Weak.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby FJD » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:27 pm

wack wack wrote:Boehner Calls Snowden a Traitor

Again, how is someone who exposes the behavior of the American government to the American people a traitor?

He added: “The disclosure of this information puts Americans at risk. It shows our adversaries what our capabilities are. And it’s a giant violation of the law.”


Weak.


The Guardian is a British newspaper. Snowden's method for exposing the American government's misbehavior was to tell a foriegn media source. As part of getting the security clearence for his job he would have had to swear some kind of oath, or sign documents stating that among other things, he wouldn't disclose what he saw or was involved in. Technically speaking he betrayed that oath.

Clearly Snowden's sense of morality and conscience felt that disclosing what our government was up to was a far lesser crime then continuing to support the NSA's activites. It's not like Snowden wasn't completely aware of the legal ramifications of his actions though. He didn't got to Hong Kong for the fun of it. Releasing that information was legaly speaking probably a text book definition of treachery. I'm fully of the belief that morally speaking our government has commited a much larger betrayal of it's duties and responsibilities to it's citizens, then anything Snowden did, but moral outrage doesn't have much legal power.

As far as Boehner's statement, I would hope that the Speaker of the House isn't actually stupid enough to think anyone is shocked that we have the technological ability to track calls and save the data. Unless he is speaking moral capability. In which case I suspect very few of America's enemies are shocked that we have the moral capability to track our own citizens in this manner.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby wack wack » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:52 pm

Snowden may have broken laws, but he is not a traitor. Boehner's use of the word is ridiculous, just another example of taking partisanship to the extreme and trying to distract from the real issue, which is government surveillance, not the snitch.

Plus, and this may just be my view, but it's another example of the petty, vindictive, "gotcha" attitude on the right. Boehner says:

“The disclosure of this information puts Americans at risk. It shows our adversaries what our capabilities are."


So... what? Now terrorists will stop making calls or using the internet? This is a bad thing?

It is when your goal is not to prevent terrorism, but to catch terrorists.

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Re: NSA spying on everyone, everything

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:57 pm

Anyone remember when the New York Times was labeled a traitor for publishing the Pentagon Papers?


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