Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

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Stebben84
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:58 am

rabble wrote:If Ecuador gets away with this, other countries will start telling the US "You don't want us to behave like that, do you? Let's discuss this trade agreement some more."


You have a point and we'll see if Ecuador is trying that tactic too. On the one hand:

In Ecuador's most extensive statement about the case, the foreign minister hailed Snowden on Monday as "a man attempting to bring light and transparency to facts that affect everyone's fundamental liberties."


On the other hand:

With unprecedented international attention focused on Ecuador, many citizens said they felt giving asylum to Snowden would be courting trouble for no reason, particularly with a key U.S. trade agreement up for renewal in coming weeks.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/2 ... 93911.html

I think they'll give him the asylum. Even though the citizens may not want the attention, I think Ecuador may want to send a message. It sounds like relations between them and the US hasn't been so hot anyway, so I don't know if they have much to lose.

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I don't think he dislikes the attention, but that doesn't mean his motivation was getting attention. He had to know that most of the attention would be of the negative variety.


I agree that seeking attention wasn't his only motivation, but I do think it played a part. I guess I feel this way given how he has been releasing information and the way he has been framing this. He really wanted everyone to know that it was HIM who leaked this info unlike Manning, who dumped it over to Wikileaks and was subsequently found out.

Snowden has secured himself a place is some history books and if all goes his way, he may very well live his life out in Ecuador. Of course they could have a change of government in the coming years that will eventually turn him over. The whole story is fascinating and we've probably all been flagged for talking about this :wink:

snoqueen
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:25 am

He really wanted everyone to know that it was HIM who leaked this info unlike Manning, who dumped it over to Wikileaks and was subsequently found out.


Revealing his identity was also a self-protective move, because now he's a celebrity (good or bad, depending on your view) and that in itself gives him access to aid and allies -- globally -- who otherwise might have ignored the whole thing.

If the whole caper takes US status in the eyes of the world down a peg, that's only because we've managed to lay the groundwork so well over the last decades. The US (GNP $12,970 billion)* has done so many things, major and minor, to offend and alarm citizens of other countries that if we're being seen as a bully on this matter, it's not news at all.

If Ecuador (GNP $34.8 billion) gets the last laugh it's possible a lot of other small countries will be taking another look at their own trade and foreign policy. What have they got to lose? Just about anything useful they need imported, they can get from China.

And exports? I see that Ecuador is the world's biggest exporter of bananas. How long can America get along without bananas? A week?

They'll win that fight for sure.


GNP reference:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/info ... /PNB2.html

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby FJD » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:28 pm

snoqueen wrote:Revealing his identity was also a self-protective move, because now he's a celebrity (good or bad, depending on your view) and that in itself gives him access to aid and allies -- globally -- who otherwise might have ignored the whole thing.


Good point. The NSA was already looking for him by the time he went public. His revelation was to the public and media, not the government. It will be harder for the US government to act against him with so much attention focused.

rabble wrote:We'll see whether Ecuador turns him over or not, but what I see is chinks in the US armor starting to show. If Ecuador gets away with this, other countries will start telling the US "You don't want us to behave like that, do you? Let's discuss this trade agreement some more."


While diplomacy is also an option I am sure the US government will pursue, In Snowden's place I'd worry more about covert responses. If you think a federal judge gives a damn how a defendant is brought before him or her, look up Manuel Noriega. I don't think upsetting Ecuador is high on the list of things the US government gives a damn about right now.

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby rabble » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:54 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:While diplomacy is also an option I am sure the US government will pursue, In Snowden's place I'd worry more about covert responses. If you think a federal judge gives a damn how a defendant is brought before him or her, look up Manuel Noriega. I don't think upsetting Ecuador is high on the list of things the US government gives a damn about right now.

That's just it; what kind of covert response are you expecting? I don't think Seal Team 6 is the right approach.

They'd have to use up at least a few covert assets, reveal escape routes, call in favors, just to make an example outa somebody. No prize except maybe saving face and giving other leakers food for thought.

In the heyday of the empire, that would be probable. I don't know about today. Putin just came out and said he's not handing the guy over. We've got NOBODY in our corner on this one. Best we can do is a few countries worried about their next trade agreement. My bet is more posturing, quiet fadeout, and a permanent watch list for anybody who buys tickets to Ecuador.

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:39 am

Heightened tensions with Russia and China is a bad thing?

Stebben84
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:28 pm

Huh? Go figure:

NSA leaker Edward Snowden despised classified leaks in 2009, illustrating that the former Booz Allen Hamilton employee was not always the champion of transparency that he has become....

"Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus christ. they're like wikileaks," he said in the chat.

"they're just reporting, dude," said another user.

"moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this?" he said. "those people should be shot in the balls."


I realize that people can change their opinions, but this wasn't that long ago and I'm sure he knew what was going on at that point.

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:45 pm

Sounds interesting.

Post the link?

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:50 pm


manoletters
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby manoletters » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:20 pm

Tsk Tsk. President Putin, that grotesque violator of human rights and dear friend of every Russkie oligarch, refuses to hand over heroic Edward Snowden to the United States' National Security Gestapo. Now don't misapprehend my sentiment: I'm no fan of "Vlad the Impaler," (google him) Putin, but maybe, just maybe Russia has valid, historically-based reasons to respond in a petulant manner. After all, it was the USA that intervened, at the cost of thousands of Russian lives, in Soviet Russia's circa-1920 Civil War. Naturally, America took the side of the Czarist "White Russians." While true that Franklin Roosevelt finally recognized the existence of the Soviet Union in 1933, that was a bit late in the game. In World War II, that much-beloved-by-Nixon Genocidal General from Dixie, slap-happy George Patton intended to continue thrusting eastward, toward the USSR. In the aftermath of Nazi Germany's May 1945 defeat, Patton knew the "Commies" were our "true and perpetual enemy," and must be eradicated.

Did you know that Air Force Chief of Staff Curtis LeMay was chomping at the bit during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis to turn Moscow into a pile of glowing embers? Only the relative sanity displayed by Kennedy and Khruschev managed to save Humanity - for a time, anyway. More recently, George W. Bush abrogated the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty, in order to more "legitimately" install an extremely provocative "Star Wars" type "Missile Defense System" in Poland. And while I don't condone Russia's 2008 bombing of the Georgian capital Tblisi, it didn't help matters diplomatically for the US to actively side against Russia, even going so far as sending US warships into the Black Sea, resulting in a potentially catastrophic confrontation.
No, I don't like, nor do I defend the misdeeds of the Russian hierarchy. The "Pussy Riot" women should be released immediately. But Russia does indeed have cause to snub the United States' efforts to seize and punish "Fast Eddie Snowden." Ah, the wily Mr. Snowden, who pretty much only revealed things we Americans already knew - or at least suspected. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 72580.html
Last edited by manoletters on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby manoletters » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:23 pm

Talk-show host, Randi Rhodes joked on June 24 that "...he's escaped to Communist countries, no matter how you slice it." But Edward Snowden seems to have amazingly - does he even have a passport? - gotten the assistance of various governments that are obviously reluctant to co-operate with the United States' extradition requests. The very brave and heroic "Fast Eddie" seems to be directing himself, wisely, through and toward several countries that are fed up with the US President, State Department and Congress continually, hypocritically pointing out other nations' spying and "Human Rights Violations." Some very chubby American fingers have been pointed at China, condemning Beijing for hacking America's national security apparatus. But it takes a lot of nerve to demonize China, when the NSA has targeted EVERY "wired" American's electronic transmissions, and probably the emails, land-line and cell phone calls of every "wired" human being on earth!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... on-privacy

rabble
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby rabble » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:00 pm

Glenn Greenwald has been feeling the heat for his reporting on this case.

According to experts, it's unlikely he'll be charged with anything. But damn, I wonder how those reporters found out about his tax problems nine years ago and that student loan thing from ten years back.

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby FJD » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:14 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Damn sorry about that.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3504746/



Interesting read. He just turned 30 so I'm not horribly shocked that a guy in his mid 20s might still be evolving his ideas and beliefs. People's who's ideas and beliefs don't evolve kind of scare me tbh.

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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby FJD » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:01 pm

Ummmmmm

Tola told reporters that Snowden’s asylum application hadn’t been processed because he was not in Ecuador as required by law. She also threatened legal action against whoever had leaked the document. She and other officials offered no further details about his case.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/ecuador-says-letter-of-safe-conduct-for-snowden-is-real-but-unauthorized-and-invalid/2013/06/27/fe72008e-df2d-11e2-8cf3-35c1113cfcc5_story.html

Stebben84
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:34 pm

This is so being made into a movie.

Henry Vilas
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Re: Massive spying: through a Prism, darkly

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:34 pm



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