What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

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Stebben84
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:36 pm

fisticuffs wrote:I think this thread should be locked on account of stupid. Seems to be enough of a reason around here. Why not this one?


I'll second that. The minute someone starts comparing being gay to getting tattoos, the dumber we have all just become.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby wack wack » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:42 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
wack wack wrote:They're not talking to you. They're speaking to others in their subculture with those tattoos.


Isn't that what I said?

That they are joining a subculture at the expense of joining than the mainstream culture.


I am saying there is no expense; diving deeply into a subculture is hardly limiting anymore (unless that subculture is NAMBLA, I suppose).


johnfajardohenry wrote:What about you, Wack Wack. You got tattoos? (If I am not being too nosy)

John Henry


Yes, I have a few. They have nothing to do with society or subculture.

Stebben84
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:18 pm

On Tuesday 365Gay.com reported that the Bremerhaven Zoo had imported four female penguins from Sweden which it hoped would split up its three gay penguin couples and turn the birds "straight". (story)

But the six gay penguins were not interested in dallying with the other sex, remaining faithful to their same-sex partners.

"The relationships were apparently too strong," said zoo Director Heike Kueck.


http://web.archive.org/web/200709290903 ... nguins.htm

When did the penguins choose to be gay? Maybe they had a gay penguin dad.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby DCB » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:49 pm

How's this for an argument: a guy who made it his life's work to "cure" gayness decides it was all a big mistake:
I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents. I am sorry that there were times I didn’t stand up to people publicly “on my side” who called you names like sodomite—or worse. I am sorry that I, knowing some of you so well, failed to share publicly that the gay and lesbian people I know were every bit as capable of being amazing parents as the straight people that I know.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:38 pm

When I read that, I found it sad, somewhat touching, pathetic, and a whole lot of other adjectives that fit together strangely. At least he came to his senses, has issued an apology, and revised his thinking. Maybe someone who needs to see that will, in fact, be helped by reading it.

One more example of how a person who is rabidly against something is often doing nothing more than having an argument with his own self.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Bludgeon » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:53 pm

DCB wrote:How's this for an argument: a guy who made it his life's work to "cure" gayness decides it was all a big mistake:

Right? I mean, what better barometer could we possibly have than some religious nut who is (yet again) gaining notoriety for it?

I guess I should have known, I mean I was at least expecting some nonsense, but never too old to be surprised, by the degree of blind intensity that seems to just follow questions about sexuality. Maybe it's an issue so rife with demagoguery, that we should all just 'never mind' making any sense out of it.

I thought it would be more like the 'warmist' threads, where at least people would show up with their homework but man, except for Igor and Jman, wow, right to the gutter and now to the dregs of sentimentality.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby rabble » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:33 am

Bludgeon wrote:I thought it would be more like the 'warmist' threads, where at least people would show up with their homework but man, except for Igor and Jman, wow, right to the gutter and now to the dregs of sentimentality.

I asked a question a couple pages ago and no one answered. Including YOU, who claims that you're fine with gayness. How come you didn't answer it?
Here it is again:
Why should we care whether a home influences sexual preference any more than we care whether a home influences a person's proclivity to watch NASCAR?

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:46 am

Bludgeon wrote:I thought it would be more like the 'warmist' threads, where at least people would show up with their homework


Homework? What homework did you bring to the table? You asked a question and then proceeded to shoot down everyone's opinion because you weren't being given the answer you wanted. You seem to believe that being raised by gay couples can make you gay, yet you bring no statistics about this. You say this is unprecedented, yet it isn't. You say that someone can just decide one day to be gay, yet I've not seen any evidence from you to back this up. I mean, who wouldn't just choose a gay lifestyle. It's such a cakewalk in today's society.

And you keep dodging the question when you chose to be straight.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby gargantua » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:45 am

Bludgeon wrote: wow, right to the gutter and now to the dregs of sentimentality.


OK, looks like by the OP's own admission, it's time to lock the thread.

rabble
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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby rabble » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:50 am

gargantua wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: wow, right to the gutter and now to the dregs of sentimentality.


OK, looks like by the OP's own admission, it's time to lock the thread.

HEY! He hasn't answered my question yet.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:18 am

What about childhood sexual abuse?

"Anecdote and life experience"(tm) seem to show that many (most?) gay men were sexually abused as children.

So did the CSA cause them to become gay?

"Children" in the modern context seems to mean anyone who has not yet reached their 20th birthday. If you wish to define it differently, fine by me, just state an age.

John Henry

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby AndyMatts » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:36 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Would anybody be so inclined as to explain, in a rhetoric-free way, what the case is for the argument that sexuality is a predetermined genetic trait?

Like: you have blue eyes, red hair, a fair complexion, can't grow sideburns, have a unibrow, and.... [/insert sexuality type].

I ask, because I'm curiuos if the argument for predetermined sexuality is stronger in it's extensive form than the little snippets I've seen, which to me have seemed pretty tenuous.

I'm interested because gay marriage has been in the news lately and the idea of predetermined sexuality has always been a notion that kind of bugs me. I feel I always have to repeat here, I'm <--- not religious, no problems with homosexuality et al, not even remotely bothered by it, but, if there is a strong case for this argument that sexuality is predetermined, I would like to hear it.

As far as what I've seen in the snippets, it's been described in terms of a 'likelihood percentage' - like other genetic traits that, theoretically you're predisposed to acquire, but then again might not get. That's the notion that I don't find compelling.

Thanks for the read.

Bludge.


There's a difference between saying that sexuality is set very early in life, and is not a matter of choice, and that genetics play a role in that, and saying that it is completely genetically hard-wired or "a pre-determined genetic trait."

You're asking for others to support a straw man you created.
Last edited by AndyMatts on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby AndyMatts » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:53 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Stebben84 wrote:What this study shows is that promiscuous homosexual sex is more likely to cause STDs. It does not show that "being homosexual is more unhealthy that being heterosexual."

Show me in the study where homosexuals in a monogamous relationship are more unhealthy that heterosexuals in one.


No, you are right, it does not show that being homosexual, in and of itself, is unhealthy. I think you probably would be right about homosexuals in monogamous relationships having STDs at about the same rate as monogamous heterosexuals.

On the other hand, the data would indicate that not many homosexuals are in monogamous relationships, wouldn't it?

If gay men make up about 3% of the population, why would they have 65% of all syphilis cases?

Any thoughts on that? It seems all out of proportion.

If they were just like heterosexuals (but gay) would we not expect the rate to be about 3% of all syphilis cases rather than 20 times that?

One issue is that the ass is not designed for sex. It is much easier to transmit disease via anal sex compared to vaginal sex. The vagina is a pretty rugged apparatus. The ass? Not so much.

John Henry


No, the study doesn't suggest that gays are not particularly monogamous, you do.

An equally valid inference would be that the severe stigma put on homosexuality by people like you drives people to make foolish, unhealthy choices when they fear societal disapproval.

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:39 am

AndyMatts wrote:No, the study doesn't suggest that gays are not particularly monogamous, you do.


If we accept the study's 65% rate of STDs and syphilis and we accept that monogamous gays are likely to have STDs at about the same rate as monogamous straights, it would seem to show exactly that.

Otherwise why would the rates be so wildly out of proportion?

An equally valid inference would be that the severe stigma put on homosexuality by people like you drives people to make foolish, unhealthy choices when they fear societal disapproval.


Oh, so now it is a "choice"? :(

In any event, you seem to be conceding my point but trying to excuse it. Yes, they make unwise unhealthy lifestyle choices. Non-monogamous, random sex with strangers choices in many cases. As indicated by the way high STD/syphilis rate.

So are gays as a group less monogamous than straights as a group? Yes? No?

As for stigma, can you show me where I have ever done that? I have been pretty explicit about my liberal (libertarian) and non-conservative approach to life and politics. I am fine with all consenting adults, including gays, doing what they like sexually in private. No problem at all for me.

Perhaps you can give some examples for this stigma you attribute to me?

John Henry

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Re: What is the case for the 'genetic sexuality' argument?

Postby acereraser » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:16 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:"Anecdote and life experience"(tm) seem to show that many (most?) gay men were sexually abused as children.


This is rhetorical quackery.


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