BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

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Meade
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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Meade » Wed May 22, 2013 3:16 pm

The embattled IRS official Lois Lerner looks like she could be the mother of my state representative, Terese Berceau, only Terese Berceau is far prettier and, as far as I know, has never tried to invoke her fifth amendment rights in front of a congressional committee.
ImageLois

ImageTerese

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby david cohen » Wed May 22, 2013 3:26 pm

Wait until this expands to include IRS agents targeting Liberal groups under prior administrations.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Comrade » Wed May 22, 2013 3:29 pm

Frankly, it doesn't really matter whether or not she returns or answers anything. We now know that she does believe that at least one crime did take place as you only assert the 5th amendment privledge against self INCRIMINATION when you have reason to believe you could be held at least partly responsible for a crime. (Hence the word)

She has now set wheels in motion that will not stop until the truth is revealed. The only questions are whether they find out the easy way or the hard way and how long it takes. It could be a single crime or it could be multiple felonies as in 3-500 violations of the Hatch Act as well as numerous obstruction of justice charges as they tried to keep this from the public eye.

The position that this is a partisan witchhunt with nothing to it has now fallen by the wayside. There is definitely SOMETHING to it.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed May 22, 2013 3:33 pm

Meade wrote:The embattled IRS official Lois Lerner looks like she could be the mother of my state representative, Terese Berceau, only Terese Berceau is far prettier and, as far as I know, has never tried to invoke her fifth amendment rights in front of a congressional committee.
ImageLois

ImageTerese


Meade wrote:In fact, show me a comment of mine that was "off-topic" and I will remove it myself.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby wack wack » Wed May 22, 2013 3:45 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
wack wack wrote:
Rep. Elijah E. Cummings of Maryland, ranking Democrat on the panel, also on Wednesday condemned the IRS‘ political targeting as unacceptable but said it likely was the result of “gross incompetence and mismanagement” in determining which organizations should qualify for tax-exempt status.


So I have to ask, do you agree with Rep Cummings' assesment Wack Wack, and if so, how does “gross incompetence and mismanagement” by a federal agency not warrent a national apology? I'm not talking covering their faces in ash and wearing a sack, just a simple, "we screwed up, this is how, we're sorry and this is how we are going to fix it."

Maybe if it's just one or two groups, fine, send them a letter of apology, but 300 groups were affected by this mismanagement with who knows how many active members and donors. How does apologizing to them publicly hurt?


No, I think even Cummings is overstating it, but "gross" is a matter of perspective. Any incompetence and mismanagement is regarding the long-term misapplication of the statutes governing 501(c)4 organizations, not the bullying of Tea Party groups.

How were 300 groups affected? Aside from hurt feelings because they might've been treated unfairly, how were they negatively affected? Had to answer a few more questions? Had to wait a bit longer? Who lost what? Last I heard, the number of conservative groups actually denied approval for ideological reasons stood at zero. Has this changed? Have I missed some recent developments?

Seriously, help me understand. What illegal or intolerable burden was put on the affected groups? What required a public apology? For that matter, what even required disclosure to the public?

A public apology threw the door open to the full on circus happening now... nobody cares anymore about the groups, it's all about who knew what and when. Let's be honest: these are not personal relationships; nobody is going to feel better, nothing will be fixed with an apology. Especially in this day in age, a public apology can only lead to negative politics.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed May 22, 2013 3:57 pm

wack wack wrote:Once again, Cummings is the smartest man in the room:

But Ranking Democrat Elijah Cummings of Maryland said hearing rules were not like those of a courtroom.


http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/d ... z2U3MRZXYI

This isn't SVU. What are the rules for this type of hearing? That fact is never mentioned.


Oh god, I started reading the comments on that article...

Rules of a hearing are probably some what diferent then a criminal or civil court case, but I couldn't find anything in a brief google search (unless I wanted to buy a book on testifying in congressional hearings) that clarified the process. I'm guessing the rules of testifying under oath and invoking the Fifth don't change much though. I'm not sure you can claim under oath to have not broken any laws then refuse to testify to avoid self incrimination. If she has a reason to invoke the Fifth, it would seem she purjured herself in her opening statement, if her opening statement is factual, then she has no reason to fear self incrimination and cannot use the Fifth.

It's possible she is fishing for an immunity deal in exchange for her testimony but that still doesn't explain the claim of innocence in her opening statement. I'm surprised her lawyer let that happen.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed May 22, 2013 4:11 pm

wack wack wrote:No, I think even Cummings is overstating it, but "gross" is a matter of perspective. Any incompetence and mismanagement is regarding the long-term misapplication of the statutes governing 501(c)4 organizations, not the bullying of Tea Party groups.

How were 300 groups affected? Aside from hurt feelings because they might've been treated unfairly, how were they negatively affected? Had to answer a few more questions? Had to wait a bit longer? Who lost what? Last I heard, the number of conservative groups actually denied approval for ideological reasons stood at zero. Has this changed? Have I missed some recent developments?

Seriously, help me understand. What illegal or intolerable burden was put on the affected groups? What required a public apology? For that matter, what even required disclosure to the public?

A public apology threw the door open to the full on circus happening now... nobody cares anymore about the groups, it's all about who knew what and when. Let's be honest: these are not personal relationships; nobody is going to feel better, nothing will be fixed with an apology. Especially in this day in age, a public apology can only lead to negative politics.



They were applying for tax exempt status, one would logically presume that having that status withheld for any significant amount of time would have an effect on their finances at least in the short term.

The story was going to come out, public apology or no. Do really think the Inspector General's report was going to be released and no one would notice? The second it was released so congressional staffer would have leaked it to the press anyway. The fact that a significant portion of the groups affected were conservative tea party groups already guaranteed that it was going to be negative politics. Apologizing wasn't for the TP club anyway, it's for moderates who may not like the TP but probabably don't like a heavy handed government agency either.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby fisticuffs » Wed May 22, 2013 4:14 pm

They were applying for tax exempt status, one would logically presume that having that status withheld for any significant amount of time would have an effect on their finances at least in the short term.


Hardly They could have had tax except status with other types of organization. They were filing to hide the identity of their donors.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed May 22, 2013 4:32 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
They were applying for tax exempt status, one would logically presume that having that status withheld for any significant amount of time would have an effect on their finances at least in the short term.


Hardly They could have had tax except status with other types of organization. They were filing to hide the identity of their donors.


While your statement might be (is probably) true, there is no indication the IRS had any evidence to disqualify these groups because of it. However you just reafirmed my point. Knowing their names might be disclosed may have driven some donors away, hence effecting the groups finances.

I'm guessing you are ok with that. So am I for that matter, but my point was that a delay in getting their tax exempt status did have an effect beyond upsetting the groups or making them mad.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby DCB » Wed May 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Comrade wrote:The position that this is a partisan witchhunt with nothing to it has now fallen by the wayside. There is definitely SOMETHING to it.

"And you know something is happening, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?"

As far as I know, some low-level staffers took some shortcuts because they were over-worked. Those shortcuts were against the rules, and Lerner probably should have done something about it.

Let me know when you have something more substantial.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby snoqueen » Wed May 22, 2013 4:45 pm

One reason for taking the Fifth in a congressional hearing is if you do, for congress to force your testimony they then have to grant you immunity. The reason a federal employee might do this is to save their job.

That doesn't mean they committed a crime, let alone they're admitting they committed one (which is not what taking the Fifth says). It might mean they displeased someone with the power to fire them, often to create a scapegoat.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby HawkHead » Wed May 22, 2013 4:47 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
wack wack wrote:No, I think even Cummings is overstating it, but "gross" is a matter of perspective. Any incompetence and mismanagement is regarding the long-term misapplication of the statutes governing 501(c)4 organizations, not the bullying of Tea Party groups.

How were 300 groups affected? Aside from hurt feelings because they might've been treated unfairly, how were they negatively affected? Had to answer a few more questions? Had to wait a bit longer? Who lost what? Last I heard, the number of conservative groups actually denied approval for ideological reasons stood at zero. Has this changed? Have I missed some recent developments?

Seriously, help me understand. What illegal or intolerable burden was put on the affected groups? What required a public apology? For that matter, what even required disclosure to the public?

A public apology threw the door open to the full on circus happening now... nobody cares anymore about the groups, it's all about who knew what and when. Let's be honest: these are not personal relationships; nobody is going to feel better, nothing will be fixed with an apology. Especially in this day in age, a public apology can only lead to negative politics.



They were applying for tax exempt status, one would logically presume that having that status withheld for any significant amount of time would have an effect on their finances at least in the short term.

The story was going to come out, public apology or no. Do really think the Inspector General's report was going to be released and no one would notice? The second it was released so congressional staffer would have leaked it to the press anyway. The fact that a significant portion of the groups affected were conservative tea party groups already guaranteed that it was going to be negative politics. Apologizing wasn't for the TP club anyway, it's for moderates who may not like the TP but probabably don't like a heavy handed government agency either.


As a CPA dealing with the IRS on a daily basis this is false. Organization operate as non-profits all the time without final IRS approval. The only time it matters is when you have to file a tax return and for 501(c)3 that want to guarantee that yor donation is tax deductibe. And that doesn't stop 501(c)3s from sending out those letters before the IRS affirms their status.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby jman111 » Wed May 22, 2013 4:50 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:They were applying for tax exempt status, one would logically presume that having that status withheld for any significant amount of time would have an effect on their finances at least in the short term.

It is my understanding, based on recent coverage, that this is not the case- that there was no time period over which the status was "withheld".

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby HawkHead » Wed May 22, 2013 4:52 pm

Probably something only CPAs know.

The IRS targets certain groups every year. In fact they actually publish what types of groups they are going to look at on their website if you know where to look.

Be it C-Corp Compensation verses dividends, reasonable S-Corp Compensation, Horse Farms and Hobby Losses, 501(c)4 entites, etc.....

I do take offense to the IRS targeting specific entities within a certain group. That is completely wrong.

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Re: BO's IRS Targets Political Enemies

Postby snoqueen » Wed May 22, 2013 4:52 pm

What a relief to have somebody who knows what they're talking about weigh in on this topic.
Last edited by snoqueen on Wed May 22, 2013 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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