Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

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kurt_w
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:28 pm

kurt_w wrote:
O.J. wrote:Yet you and your beloved Republicans refused to pay for it. In fact, you demanded a tax cut.

The war was going to pay for itself, right? We'd be in and out quickly, we'd leave our buddy Ahmed Chalabi running the country, and US-based oil companies would get first dibs on all those new oil fields. That was the plan.

It's not easy to find an up-to-date accounting of the costs of the war in Iraq that doesn't conflate them with the costs of Afghanistan. But the total for both wars is something like $3.5 to $4.0 trillion, plus another trillion in interest over the coming decade.

I'm pretty sure that more than half of that is for Iraq. So Bush's mistake -- that Flanders is so enthusiastic about defending -- is costing us upwards of $2 trillion, perhaps significantly more, by 2020.

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Edited to add link

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Ned Flanders » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:38 pm

The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:44 pm

The Atlantic's James Fallows on this topic (emphasis added):

As We Near the 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War

This month marks ten years since the U.S. launched its invasion of Iraq. In my view this was the biggest strategic error by the United States since at least the end of World War II and perhaps over a much longer period. Vietnam was costlier and more damaging, but also more understandable. As many people have chronicled, the decision to fight in Vietnam was a years-long accretion of step-by-step choices, each of which could be rationalized at the time. Invading Iraq was an unforced, unnecessary decision to risk everything on a "war of choice" whose costs we are still paying.


Every American ought to read Fallows's (brief) comments. He notes the absence of any reckoning or accountability in US politics and journalism -- the people who got Iraq spectacularly wrong are still listened to, while the people who got it right are mostly ignored. He also brings up issues like threat inflation and the eerily familiar right-wing posturing about the desirability of an attack on Iran.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby O.J. » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:45 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.


Even if it means raising your taxes?

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:47 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.
"Treat this like WWII"?
You mean, wait for the enemy to drastically overextend themselves and then have the no-longer-existing Soviet Union mop the floor with them?

Where do you learn your history from anyway, Ned? Do you only read books from alternate realities?

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:53 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.


Ya, and this is 2013. We have more nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, and other weapons that didn't exist during WWII(and it's not just us). We have allies reluctant to join with us, and many more enemies now than we did before. You know, I thought we did take the gloves off during the invasion of Iraq. Didn't we have a HUGE coalition of the willing. How did that work out Ned?

This is one of those times when I don't really think you believe what you say. It's moronic on so many levels.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:56 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.

OK, let's see. What did we do in WWII?

* We drafted millions of civilians
* We re-oriented the entire economy around the war effort, including price controls, rationing, and vastly increased government spending
* We raised taxes to unprecedented levels to pay for the war effort
* We allied with Stalin's USSR (who did the majority of the actual work in defeating the Nazis)
* We adopted "total war" methods against the Axis states, involving things like strategic bombing of civilian populations (leaving hundreds of thousands of civilians dead and millions homeless)
* We used nuclear weapons on two cities

So -- what cities do you think should be firebombed or nuked? When will you start demanding that the government raise taxes, impose massive controls on the nation's economy, and begin drafting young people? What exactly does "take the gloves off" mean?

Because it sounds to me like you're just mouthing conservative feel-good bullshit.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Ned Flanders » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:12 pm

kurt_w wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.

OK, let's see. What did we do in WWII?

* We drafted millions of civilians
* We re-oriented the entire economy around the war effort, including price controls, rationing, and vastly increased government spending
* We raised taxes to unprecedented levels to pay for the war effort
* We allied with Stalin's USSR (who did the majority of the actual work in defeating the Nazis)
* We adopted "total war" methods against the Axis states, involving things like strategic bombing of civilian populations (leaving hundreds of thousands of civilians dead and millions homeless)
* We used nuclear weapons on two cities

So -- what cities do you think should be firebombed or nuked? When will you start demanding that the government raise taxes, impose massive controls on the nation's economy, and begin drafting young people? What exactly does "take the gloves off" mean?

Because it sounds to me like you're just mouthing conservative feel-good bullshit.


And an insane, zealot enemy was defeated in fairly short order.

Sound familiar?
Last edited by Ned Flanders on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:14 pm

kurt_w wrote: So Bush's mistake -- that Flanders is so enthusiastic about defending -- is costing us upwards of $2 trillion, perhaps significantly more, by 2020.

Collateral damage? Who is going to pay for all this with their reduced entitlement money?

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:18 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:
kurt_w wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:The U.S. and its allies can either do what they've been doing for the last decade or take the gloves off, treat this like WWII and end it in a few years.

OK, let's see. What did we do in WWII?

* We drafted millions of civilians
* We re-oriented the entire economy around the war effort, including price controls, rationing, and vastly increased government spending
* We raised taxes to unprecedented levels to pay for the war effort
* We allied with Stalin's USSR (who did the majority of the actual work in defeating the Nazis)
* We adopted "total war" methods against the Axis states, involving things like strategic bombing of civilian populations (leaving hundreds of thousands of civilians dead and millions homeless)
* We used nuclear weapons on two cities

So -- what cities do you think should be firebombed or nuked? When will you start demanding that the government raise taxes, impose massive controls on the nation's economy, and begin drafting young people? What exactly does "take the gloves off" mean?

Because it sounds to me like you're just mouthing conservative feel-good bullshit.


And an insane, zealot enemy was defeated in fairly short order.


Still can't answer the questions, eh? It's easy to blurt out platitudes like "take the gloves off" but you can't actually come out and say what you mean by that.

Let's try again: You claim that we should repeat what we did in WW2. So -- what cities do you think should be firebombed or nuked? When will you start demanding that the government raise taxes, impose massive controls on the nation's economy, and begin drafting young people? What exactly does "take the gloves off" mean?

kurt_w
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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby kurt_w » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:20 pm

Frankly, Flanders, you remind me a lot more of the people we were fighting against in WW2 than the people we were fighting alongside.

And no, that's not a joke.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Galoot » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:22 pm

I bet he'll manage to troll y'all for at least another 4 pages, like he did the last time.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:29 pm

Galoot wrote:I bet he'll manage to troll y'all for at least another 4 pages, like he did the last time.


I was ready with a reply, saw your post and realized your right. There is no point in debating Ned, because it's not really a debate or even a conversation for that matter. It's like explaining calculus to a two year old.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby DCB » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:45 pm

Galoot wrote:I bet he'll manage to troll y'all for at least another 4 pages, like he did the last time.

Kurt asked, at the top, what we've learned.

Personally, I've learned that there is no value in engaging with trolls, whether they forons, Supreme Court justices, or Vice Presidents. They are best ignored.

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Re: Tenth anniversary of the Iraq War

Postby Ned Flanders » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:51 pm

I've stripped away all of the emotion and hand wringing and pointed out how, using our last great war as an example, we can defeat a similar enemy without bankrupting oursevles and our allies while ending this once and for all.

Will there be horrors that come with war? Surely. But they are already here. I can't think of anything much more horrible than people jumping out of burning skyscrapers, subway bombings or planes full of women and children being used as missles.

Obama and even Bush to some extent have proven that half-hearted efforts and groveling will do nothing but destroy our way of civilization and embolden the Islamists.


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