Chicago Teachers Strike

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
HawkHead
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby HawkHead » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:17 pm

SlayerDave wrote:Also, re: class size, it's true that Finland does quite well with class sizes smaller than ours. However, other nations that also do well, such as Japan and Korea, have class sizes larger than the U.S.

Image

Personally, I think focus on class size is misguided and a distraction.
It's been declining in the U.S. for some time, with little corresponding improvement.
http://futureofchildren.org/futureofchi ... cators.pdf


Not sure on that one either. Class sizes have been going up in the USA and test scores down. Research study after study shows that a class with 20 students will do better than a class of 30 students.

The link you show talks more about the cost of facilities to meet the lower students per teacher ratio and not the actual results of fewer students per class.
Last edited by HawkHead on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bland
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Bland » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:21 pm

Any comparison of schools to businesses is stupid on its face. Can't believe anyone needs to say that.

SlayerDave
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:23 pm

HawkHead wrote:I believe what the CTU is asking for is to let teachers who were let go in the past due to consolidations and shrinking budgets to be hired back before inexperienced teachers are hired. Not teachers that were dismissed for poor performance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... -one-post/
From the WaPo piece I posted earlier in the thread:
Teachers also want laid off teachers to be able to be automatically “recalled” to positions if they open up. Emanuel would allow these teachers to apply to new openings, but given his desire to focus layoffs on worst-performing teachers, does not want automatic recalls.


So yes, the unions want it to apply to laid off teachers generally. Thing is, the intention is for most of those layoffs to come through poor performance. So if the union is pushing hard for automatic recalls...

Emanuel's position seems eminently reasonable.
Last edited by SlayerDave on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ned Flanders
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Ned Flanders » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:23 pm

Bland wrote:Any comparison of schools to businesses is stupid on its face. Can't believe anyone needs to say that.

Why? Plenty of businesses are "people" oriented don't produce widgets. Nothing wrong with taking learning from one portion of society and applying it to another.

It's called being "progressive". :lol:

HawkHead
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby HawkHead » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:27 pm

SlayerDave wrote:
HawkHead wrote:I believe what the CTU is asking for is to let teachers who were let go in the past due to consolidations and shrinking budgets to be hired back before inexperienced teachers are hired. Not teachers that were dismissed for poor performance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... -one-post/
From the WaPo piece I posted earlier in the thread:
Teachers also want laid off teachers to be able to be automatically “recalled” to positions if they open up. Emanuel would allow these teachers to apply to new openings, but given his desire to focus layoffs on worst-performing teachers, does not want automatic recalls.


So yes, the unions want it to apply to laid off teachers generally. Thing is, the intention is for most of those layoffs to come through poor performance. So if the union is pushing hard for automatic recalls...

Emanuel's position seems eminently reasonable.


If you go to the article in the WaPo article here is what is said:


•RECALLING TEACHERS The CTU wants a method of recalling teachers who have been laid off when there are new job openings. CPS says laid-off teachers who lost their jobs during school closings can apply for new jobs at new schools — if there’s an opening, or take a 3-month severance package.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/10/chi ... z26CPIl2q5

SlayerDave
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:30 pm

HawkHead wrote:
Not sure on that one either. Class sizes have been going up in the USA and test scores down. Research study after study shows that a class with 20 students will do better than a class of 30 students.

The link you show talks more about the cost of facilities to meet the lower students per teacher ratio and not the actual results of fewer students per class.


Yes, should have been more specific. While the link is good reading, I did not mean to imply that it shed much light on results. I meant to include a specific reference to the graph on p. 118, which does show declines in class sizes.

Another good paper here: http://www.brookings.edu/research/paper ... st-chingos

In that one, the authors find some successes, some failures, and some middling results.

Importantly though, the cost factor is huge. Class size reduction has been called "the most expensive school reform". If the improvements offered are slight (if they are there at all), it still seems like there could be better things to spend money on.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53000338/The- ... -Reduction
Consider this example: A school that pays teachers $50,000 per year (roughly the national average) would save $833 per student in teacher salary costs alone by increasing class size from 15 to 20.30 The true savings, including facilities costs and teacher benefits, would be significantly larger. These resources could be used for other purposes. If all of the savings were used to raise teacher salaries, for example, the average teacher salary in this example would increase by $17,000 to $67,000.

SlayerDave
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:32 pm

HawkHead wrote:
SlayerDave wrote:
HawkHead wrote:I believe what the CTU is asking for is to let teachers who were let go in the past due to consolidations and shrinking budgets to be hired back before inexperienced teachers are hired. Not teachers that were dismissed for poor performance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... -one-post/
From the WaPo piece I posted earlier in the thread:
Teachers also want laid off teachers to be able to be automatically “recalled” to positions if they open up. Emanuel would allow these teachers to apply to new openings, but given his desire to focus layoffs on worst-performing teachers, does not want automatic recalls.


So yes, the unions want it to apply to laid off teachers generally. Thing is, the intention is for most of those layoffs to come through poor performance. So if the union is pushing hard for automatic recalls...

Emanuel's position seems eminently reasonable.


If you go to the article in the WaPo article here is what is said:


•RECALLING TEACHERS The CTU wants a method of recalling teachers who have been laid off when there are new job openings. CPS says laid-off teachers who lost their jobs during school closings can apply for new jobs at new schools — if there’s an opening, or take a 3-month severance package.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/10/chi ... z26CPIl2q5


Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see how that contradicts what I posted.

CPS says teachers can reapply; while CTU wants automatic recalls.
Since there is a very real possibility that those teachers will have been laid off due to performance concerns, it seems totally reasonable not to automatically rehire them. Wrong?

HawkHead
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby HawkHead » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:36 pm

SlayerDave wrote:
HawkHead wrote:
Not sure on that one either. Class sizes have been going up in the USA and test scores down. Research study after study shows that a class with 20 students will do better than a class of 30 students.

The link you show talks more about the cost of facilities to meet the lower students per teacher ratio and not the actual results of fewer students per class.


Yes, should have been more specific. While the link is good reading, I did not mean to imply that it shed much light on results. I meant to include a specific reference to the graph on p. 118, which does show declines in class sizes.



So basically you were trying to misdirect from the discussion of class size and results.

HawkHead
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby HawkHead » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:37 pm

SlayerDave wrote:Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see how that contradicts what I posted.

CPS says teachers can reapply; while CTU wants automatic recalls.
Since there is a very real possibility that those teachers will have been laid off due to performance concerns, it seems totally reasonable not to automatically rehire them. Wrong?


A school closing seems to imply something completely different than a teacher being laid off for poor performance.

I wish I could find a link to the actual demands to see what exactly is stated.

SlayerDave
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:40 pm

HawkHead wrote:
SlayerDave wrote:
HawkHead wrote:
Not sure on that one either. Class sizes have been going up in the USA and test scores down. Research study after study shows that a class with 20 students will do better than a class of 30 students.

The link you show talks more about the cost of facilities to meet the lower students per teacher ratio and not the actual results of fewer students per class.


Yes, should have been more specific. While the link is good reading, I did not mean to imply that it shed much light on results. I meant to include a specific reference to the graph on p. 118, which does show declines in class sizes.



So basically you were trying to misdirect from the discussion of class size and results.


Hardly.

Class size reductions have not produced the results promised. When they have prodcued improved results, they've come with a pretty hefty price tag. I stand by both those statements, and have the studies to prove it.

SlayerDave
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:43 pm

HawkHead wrote:
SlayerDave wrote:Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see how that contradicts what I posted.

CPS says teachers can reapply; while CTU wants automatic recalls.
Since there is a very real possibility that those teachers will have been laid off due to performance concerns, it seems totally reasonable not to automatically rehire them. Wrong?


A school closing seems to imply something completely different than a teacher being laid off for poor performance.

I wish I could find a link to the actual demands to see what exactly is stated.


Yes, it does. Which is why CPS is saying those teachers laid off due to school closings are free to reapply. Ones laid off for other reasons presumably are not encouraged to do so.

In contrast, the CTU wants a much more comprehensive recall policy.

HawkHead
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby HawkHead » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:44 pm

SlayerDave wrote:Hardly.

Class size reductions have not produced the results promised. When they have prodcued improved results, they've come with a pretty hefty price tag. I stand by both those statements, and have the studies to prove it.


I suggest you reread the second paragraph of the link you provided. It talks about a substantial improvement in Tennessee classes when class size went from approxiamtely 25 to 17.

SlayerDave
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:52 pm

HawkHead wrote:
SlayerDave wrote:Hardly.

Class size reductions have not produced the results promised. When they have prodcued improved results, they've come with a pretty hefty price tag. I stand by both those statements, and have the studies to prove it.


I suggest you reread the second paragraph of the link you provided. It talks about a substantial improvement in Tennessee classes when class size went from approxiamtely 25 to 17.


Yup.

And in other studies also in the link I provided, there's been no improvement. Such as in Florida, which spent $20 billion on class size reduction and saw no improvement.

Also, re: our other line of discussion, the recalls, it's worth noting these "recall rights" have apparently been absent since 1995:
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/teacherb ... icago.html (Thorny issues, 4th paragraph).

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:04 am

HawkHead wrote:Personally, I think focus on class size is misguided and a distraction.


The smallest class my kids had in K-12 was about 30 students. A few were as many as 50.

I have no complaints whatsoever about the quality of education they got.

I never thought to count but I'd bet that there were at least 30 kids in my granddaughter's class last year.(2nd grade) She is getting an excellent education as well.

I think the issue of class size is mainly to get more teachers on the payrolls and thus more union dues to pay union leaders.

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:13 am

I think the issue of class size is mainly to get more teachers on the payrolls and thus more union dues to pay union leaders.


Yes those sweet union dues. The leaders just pocket it and buy private jets. What a lucrative scheme they have going on. Why is it that you idiots see a guy making 100k and assume their intentions are nothing but greed but you see a Wall Street banker making 6 mil, or an oil company pouring money into anti-science and their intentions are pure?


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