Chicago Teachers Strike

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johnfajardohenry
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:44 pm

I am seeing reports that Chicago teachers start at about $51,000 cash plus benefits and pension and that the average pay is about $76,000 not including benefits. (Actually, the equivalent of about $64m and $95m if they worked a normal 48 week year)

Can this possibly be true?

If it is not true, does anyone know what the actual numbers are?

Seems like a lot of money for a job requiring the education, knowledge and skill levels of most teachers.

Can someone explain why we keep hearing they are underpaid?

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Bwis53 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:51 pm

The NBC news report, tonight, said the strike was not about pay, which both sides are agreed on.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:54 pm

I suspect that, as in Wisconsin, this strike is going to end badly. Not just for Chicago teachers. It might even end OK for them. They might just get their raise to keep the city calm and primed for Obama.

Wisconsin showed people across the US that public employee unions are like pigs at a trough holding the city's gun at the taxpayer's heads to get more money. Wisconsin also showed that they are not as powerful as once thought. For all the Sturm and Drang in WI, they came away with nothing and a solid blue state now looks like there is a good chance it will go red this year. The unions, now that they must rely on voluntary dues payments will probably find they have financial difficulties. The union insurance plan was underbid by another, much more competitive plan.

Happy how things turned out, WI teachers?

The good union members of Indiana have Wisconsin to thank for now being free of union dues. I suspect that there are not many unions that are happy about that.

I suspect that the good people of Chicago, a bankrupt city in a bankrupt state are not going to be happy with this. They might even turn a city govt that paid teachers more.

Parents will think more and more about private and charter schools or even home schooling.

Chicago teachers may do OK in the short term but I think this spells log term damage to their public image.

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:57 pm

Good explainer here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... -one-post/

Pay starts in the 47k range. Average salary is around 74k.

Anyways, the big sticking points aren't over pay.

.What do the two sides still disagree on?
The Chicago Public Schools in March unveiled an evaluation system (pdf) in which standardized testing makes up 40 percent of the rubric, a percent that increases by 5 percent every year thereafter (45 percent in year two, 50 percent in year three, etc.), which was designed by panels that included teachers, principals, and teachers’ union officials (including the president). The system goes above and beyond the state requirement that testing make up 20-40 percent of teacher evaluations. The teachers’ unions are resisting this system, calling it too punitive.


Teachers also want laid off teachers to be able to be automatically “recalled” to positions if they open up. Emanuel would allow these teachers to apply to new openings, but given his desire to focus layoffs on worst-performing teachers, does not want automatic recalls. Finally, the teachers’ union is demanding smaller class sizes (both to improve working conditions and to improve student learning and life outcomes) and air conditioning for classrooms that don’t currently have it.


I think I back Emanuel on the first 3 points (with caveats about the quality of the standardized test). They should definitely spring for some AC though.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:58 pm

Albert Shankar may or may not have said:

"When schoolchildren start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children."

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby DCB » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:03 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Albert Shankar may or may not have said:

"When schoolchildren start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children."

John Henry

He didn't, but don't let reality get in the way of your ideology.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:05 pm

SlayerDave wrote:
.What do the two sides still disagree on?
The Chicago Public Schools in March unveiled an evaluation system (pdf) in which standardized testing makes up 40 percent of the rubric


Good Lord, Dave, bite your tongue! You can't have students being tested. It is against all that is sacred and Holy.

the test scores might be used to measure teacher performance. Everyone knows that the teachers who spend the most time in the systems (A/K/A seniority) are the best. Why bring in measurement to muddy up the system?
[/sarc]

I am a big believer in testing both individualized and standardized. Often and with consequences for not passing (summer school, repeating a grade, tutoring or whatever) The tests do have to be valid of course.

This firm belief got me in a lot of trouble with my professors when I was in school a few years back. It is definitely counter to current thinking in the educational establishment. Or was in 2003 or so. Given how often educational fads change, testing may be back in fashion again, though I don't see much evidence of it.

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:14 pm

DCB wrote:John Henry

He didn't, but don't let reality get in the way of your ideology.[/quote]

Did you miss the part where I said he may or may not have said it? I agree it is in dispute. He was certainly of that sentiment in other writings, though. His union existed for its members.

And quite rightly. Teachers pay dues to their union to represent THEM and their interests. If the union is using their dues to represent other parties, they are probably violating the law.

If teachers are paying their union to represent other parties, they are pretty stupid.

They apparently think that the public is pretty stupid because they keep trying to tell us that their union is representing the students.

Unions exist to serve their members. Or are legally required to, anyway, under NLRA. Too often it seems that they exist mainly to serve their leaders.

I don't believe that Chicago teachers are covered by the NLRA so perhaps they are not legally obligated to serve their members?

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby pjbogart » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:42 pm

$50k/year in a city the size of Chicago is a pittance. When I moved from Oshkosh to Madison almost 20 years ago my rent doubled. I suspect it would double again if I moved to Chicago.

I had a buddy who got his PhD in electrical engineering and moved to Boston to work for AMD. He said a cheap house in Boston is about $400k. Even with a generous salary, while AMD lasted, $400k is steep price to pay for a home. And you certainly couldn't do it on $50k/year. And generous bennies don't pay the mortgage.

I suspect that Republicans like stories like this because in rural America they don't realize how expensive it is to live in a big city. There's a bit of a sticker shock, regardless of circumstances, that causes people to resent the "city folks". I imagine that in upstate New York pointing out how much a bus driver in Manhattan makes plays pretty well. But even if he's making $100k/year, it's not enough to live in Manhattan. Shit, Little Caesar's probably has a street waver advertising $20 large pizzas.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Rich Schultz » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:49 am

pjbogart wrote:$50k/year in a city the size of Chicago is a pittance. When I moved from Oshkosh to Madison almost 20 years ago my rent doubled. I suspect it would double again if I moved to Chicago.

I suspect that Republicans like stories like this because in rural America they don't realize how expensive it is to live in a big city.


I suspect Leftists like stories like this because they don't realize condescension doesn't work for the clueless.

"$50k/year in a city the size of Chicago is a pittance."
pjbogart

The average annual income of a family in Chicago is $47,000 per year.

Chicago teachers turned down a 16% pay increase over 4 years raising average annual pay to $88,000. Chicago Public School teachers already enjoy the highest average pay of any district in the nation.

Seventy-nine percent of the 8th graders in the Chicago Public Schools are not grade-level proficient in reading, according to the U.S. Department of Education, and 80 percent are not grade-level proficient in math.

The system faces a $700 million dollar deficit at the end of the school year.

Chicago Public Schools have a 40 percent dropout rate.

"If you move from Madison, WI to Chicago, IL....
Groceries will cost: 14% more
Housing will cost: 19% more
Utilities will cost: 6% less
Transportation will cost: 4% more
Healthcare will cost: 9% less"

A $79,579 Salary in Chicago is equivalent to a $75,000 Salary in Madison.
http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Rich Schultz » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:04 am

wack wack wrote:Chicago is not Obama's hometown.


Are you calling President Obama a liar?

Message from President Obama
"Chicago is the perfect place to strengthen our Alliance of democratic nations, which is rooted in the friendships between our people and the values we share. It’s why I’m so proud that my hometown is the first American city ever to host a NATO Summit outside Washington, DC."
http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2012/Chicago/president-obama/EN/index.htm

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:05 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Parents will think more and more about private and charter schools or even home schooling. Chicago teachers may do OK in the short term but I think this spells log term damage to their public image.

John Henry

Image

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby wack wack » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:26 am

Rich Schultz wrote:
wack wack wrote:Chicago is not Obama's hometown.


Are you calling President Obama a liar?

Message from President Obama
"Chicago is the perfect place to strengthen our Alliance of democratic nations, which is rooted in the friendships between our people and the values we share. It’s why I’m so proud that my hometown is the first American city ever to host a NATO Summit outside Washington, DC."
http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2012/Chicago/president-obama/EN/index.htm


Obama's comment was a specious claim of convenience. We all know his real home town is in Kenya, right?

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Galoot » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:33 am

Finnish schools are considered to be the best in the world, or at least in the top three. That wasn't the case 40 years ago, but they instituted a broad range of reforms that focus on excellent teacher training--only about 1 in 10 applicants to the teacher training programs (there are two of them) get admitted. They don't get paid significantly more than U.S. teachers, but the working conditions are drastically different--smaller class sizes, more collaboration time--you know, all those things they are asking for in Chicago.

And this:

When asked how Finnish teachers would react if they were told they would be judged by their students’ test scores, he replied, “They would walk out and they wouldn’t return until the authorities stopped this crazy idea.”


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... tion=false

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:34 am

Rich Schultz wrote:The average annual income of a family in Chicago is $47,000 per year.


Apples and oranges, Rick. Though it is even worse than you make it sound.

Average annual family income is $47m. Average individual teacher pay is in the $70's

The average non-teacher has to work 48 weeks a year for their money (1,920 hours) The average teacher has to work 38 weeks a year for theirs (1,700 hours. I added in an hour a day that teachers claim they work at home)

Rich Schultz wrote:Seventy-nine percent of the 8th graders in the Chicago Public Schools are not grade-level proficient in reading, according to the U.S. Department of Education, and 80 percent are not grade-level proficient in math.


Only in the govt sector would these kinds of performance numbers not result in immediate termination.

John Henry


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