Chicago Teachers Strike

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FJD
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby FJD » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:09 pm

david cohen wrote:Francis, in a class of 26 kids, it would take what, 12 or so, to throw a test and screw a teacher. Let's face it, there are some tough teachers who are also great teachers but maybe some kids resent being pushed to do their best.



Some yes, roughly half? I think you are stretching plausibility. Half of the class agreeing to do it and no one lets it slip intentionally or on accident? not bloody likely.

And as Slayerdave pointed out, that kind of anomaly is going to be pretty easy to spot, and the sample size is going to be bigger than one class anyway.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:34 pm

Detritus wrote:You want us to debate the removal of tenure for K-12 teachers but you don't want to define it? Talk about arguing with phantoms....
Huh? You suggested perhaps I was misinformed or mistaken. I am willing to believe that perhaps I am. So rather than embarrass myself (further?), I asked to be properly informed before continuing. I sure hope you're not a teacher if this is how you respond to someone who understands they might be wrong and seeks clarification. Yeeesh.

Back to talking about movies, I guess...

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Detritus » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:12 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I sure hope you're not a teacher if this is how you respond to someone who understands they might be wrong and seeks clarification. Yeeesh.

I teach all the time. My students usually provide something to be clarified, rather than making an assertion which they then refuse to explain. What do you think tenure for K-12 teachers is, that you think it shouldn't exist? Or do you just want to abolish the word itself?

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby rabble » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:27 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Some yes, roughly half? I think you are stretching plausibility. Half of the class agreeing to do it and no one lets it slip intentionally or on accident? not bloody likely.

I remember that happening fairly often even back in when I went to school in the aftermath of the Civil War. My daughter told me about that sort of thing happening in her school, my friends and relatives' kids say they've been part of it or watched it happen.

It's not only pretty bloody likely, it happens regularly. They're getting really good at cheating. And cooperating. And they've got some really sweet high tech gadgets to help. It's not the same schoolyard as it was twenty or thirty years ago.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:27 pm

Detritus wrote:My students usually provide something to be clarified, rather than making an assertion which they then refuse to explain.
I say again: Huh?

I made an assertion.
You -- assuming I was misunderstanding the reality of that assertion -- called me on it.
I figured, "Well maybe I do have it wrong*, since you seem to think a lot of people do, so before we go any further, why don't you make sure I know how it really works?"
Your response: Baffling belligerence.
I mean, your pointed question earlier suggests that the answer is not obvious. When someone asks something like, "In what year was The War of 1812?" it usually means that the answer is not as obvious as it would seem, else why would they ask?

Not sure why you're being so adversarial, since my assumption is that you probably know more than I do and that what you say could actually enlighten me. It sure seems to me that you don't have any interest in having a conversation, you just want me to say something you think is stupid in the hope that you can then embarrass me. Couldn't we just skip that step and get to the part where you tell me what you know? I know that's not how it usually works around here, but I was hoping to buck that trend.

So let's try this: I think tenure means "free cupcakes for the first three teachers through the door on Thursdays." If this is wrong, please tell me what is right.

Thank you,
An honestly interested guy

*I'm used to getting things wrong. I like being corrected if I am. True story.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby FJD » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:17 am

rabble wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:Some yes, roughly half? I think you are stretching plausibility. Half of the class agreeing to do it and no one lets it slip intentionally or on accident? not bloody likely.

I remember that happening fairly often even back in when I went to school in the aftermath of the Civil War. My daughter told me about that sort of thing happening in her school, my friends and relatives' kids say they've been part of it or watched it happen.

It's not only pretty bloody likely, it happens regularly. They're getting really good at cheating. And cooperating. And they've got some really sweet high tech gadgets to help. It's not the same schoolyard as it was twenty or thirty years ago.



I'll admit I am probably wrong on the possibility of getting a group together, I'll stand by my statement that it would not stay secret for very long. Someone would let it slip to the wrong classmate, or brag about what they did. Not that a simple review of test results wouldn't show that kind of anomaly.

In any event I'm definitely not advocating for using test results as anything more than one of several tools a group reviewing teacher performance should have available. Using it as a sole determining factor would be flawed.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Stella_Guru » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:27 am

President Obama's campaign pockets are stuffed with contributions from the sugar daddies of charter schools, hedge funds and bankers, who are now using their clout with big city mayors to give charter schools every advantage over public schools. Rawmoney says he supports Rahm Emanual, whose policys are those of Arne Duncan, and is trying to make Chicago into Providence, Rhode Island.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:21 am

Galoot wrote:Once again, for the THIRD time, please present evidence that evaluating K-12 teachers based on their students standardized test results leads to better learning.


Nope. Already did (NY Regents exams, going back 150 years or so)

Its your turn. Still.

You tell me how you think teachers should be evaluated.

You pretended to answer that by saying hire better teachers. I agree we need to do that too. Do you really think that a better hiring process will give perfect teachers with no need of further evaluation?

If so, say so.

If you agree with me that no matter how good the hiring process, some ongoing evaluation is required, let me know what you have in mind.

I keep waiting.

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:28 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
Some yes, roughly half? I think you are stretching plausibility. Half of the class agreeing to do it and no one lets it slip intentionally or on accident? not bloody likely.


In the case that my wife told me about, the students were pretty open with the teacher about what they were going to do. It was hardly a secret.

The problem is that if they failed the test, it had no impact on them at all. It didn't affect their final grade (unless the teacher was vindictive), it did not affect their passing or graduating.

That is one of the problems with the way testing is carried out. Though I do not see it as a problem with the utility of testing itself.

John Henry

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Detritus » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:32 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:So let's try this: I think tenure means "free cupcakes for the first three teachers through the door on Thursdays." If this is wrong, please tell me what is right.

Thank you,
An honestly interested guy

All right, I will take you at your word. Amazingly enough, K-12 tenure has nothing to do with cupcakes. It is not a guarantee of job security (a la higher ed), either. All it guarantees is that termination must be for cause, following a process that provides the teacher with opportunity to contest and possible prevent termination. Cause could be anything actionable or, for that matter, it could be financial--lots of teachers with tenure across the country have been fired because the district doesn't think it can afford them. But the administration has to make the case. I know the mythology is that tenured K-12 teachers cannot be fired, but that is very far from the truth.

Higher Ed tenure is a different animal. A professor with tenure really can't be fired unless the administration can show cause rooted in bad behavior--budget woes are not sufficient--and can stick through a much longer process that,at every step, assumes that the professor in question has the right to stay. Professors who should be fired--and I have personally seen this more than once--for behavior ranging from failing to show up for classes to actively sabotaging their colleagues and their colleagues' students--more often than not end up staying. Usually their ace in the hole is claiming "differential treatment" (i.e. they claim they were singled out for closer attention or different treatment than their colleagues), at which point most administrations find a way to give up. The exception to this is actual criminal activity, which can be handled more aggressively.

In sum: K-12 tenure = an extra layer of process (beyond whatever is contractually provided to non-tenured teachers) to contest termination; higher ed tenure = assumption of lifetime appointment.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby FJD » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:54 pm

Detritus wrote:In sum: K-12 tenure = an extra layer of process (beyond whatever is contractually provided to non-tenured teachers) to contest termination; higher ed tenure = assumption of lifetime appointment.


Bolded part is what keeps me on board with removing tenure for K-12. It should be no easier or harder to remove a person (with cause) based on how long they have been employed.

You also left out another big difference between tenure for K-12 and Higher Ed. Unless I am mistaken, K-12 you simply get tenure after a certain number of years. College professors actually have to apply for and prove they have earned tenure through their work.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:08 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:You also left out another big difference between tenure for K-12 and Higher Ed. Unless I am mistaken, K-12 you simply get tenure after a certain number of years. College professors actually have to apply for and prove they have earned tenure through their work.


I have a friend going through this process right now. From what I've been told(please tell me if I'm wrong) if you're denied tenure after applying, you usually lose your job.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby FJD » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:17 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:You also left out another big difference between tenure for K-12 and Higher Ed. Unless I am mistaken, K-12 you simply get tenure after a certain number of years. College professors actually have to apply for and prove they have earned tenure through their work.


I have a friend going through this process right now. From what I've been told(please tell me if I'm wrong) if you're denied tenure after applying, you usually lose your job.


That sounds familiar, but I'm relying on memories of a conversation from 20-30 years ago. Even if you didn't get fired, odds are you would probably want to look for a new position some where else anyway.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Detritus » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:20 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
Detritus wrote:In sum: K-12 tenure = an extra layer of process (beyond whatever is contractually provided to non-tenured teachers) to contest termination; higher ed tenure = assumption of lifetime appointment.


Bolded part is what keeps me on board with removing tenure for K-12. It should be no easier or harder to remove a person (with cause) based on how long they have been employed.

You also left out another big difference between tenure for K-12 and Higher Ed. Unless I am mistaken, K-12 you simply get tenure after a certain number of years. College professors actually have to apply for and prove they have earned tenure through their work.

K-12 tenure is not simply seniority. Years of service is necessary, but not sufficient--you still have to have good evaluations and show professional development. It's not the gauntlet that higher ed tenure is, but it's not getting an A for showing up (unlike being, say, CEO of Bain).

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:25 pm

50% of all teachers leave the profession within the first five years. Must be because they are over compensated and have such great working conditions.


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