"Somebody else did that"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
peripat
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby peripat » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:55 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
peripat wrote:Oh heck- by his definition all infrastructure, all government is 'welfare'.


Nope. Transfer payments to individuals are welfare.

Things like roads, bridges etc that go to everyone and not to specific individuals are hardly welfare.

John Henry


You mean that money the recipients then spend on food, clothing and the like? i think that money means job creation which benefits everyone, does it not?

DCB
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby DCB » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:00 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:How is Social Security unearned?

How is it earned?

I financed the fund through deductions from my paycheck. It's an insurance program paid for by mandatory contributions. I earned my Social Security.

Which is obvious to anybody who is reasonably literate.

rabble
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:11 pm

Meade wrote:How has the Obama government done over the last 3+ years to build and repair the infrastructure needed by business to succeed? We need a report card.

One word: filibuster.

There's your fuckin report card. When you finally get pissed at the assholes who think their job is to stand in the doorway and yell "You shall not pass!" maybe the country has a snowball's chance.

fennel
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fennel » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:28 pm

rabble wrote:One word: filibuster.
Or, more to the point: Stall.
Stall the economy however we can. Then we'll sweep away the rubble and establish a righteous new dynasty whose minions are seen but not heard.

Rich Schultz
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Rich Schultz » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:18 am

Or in Rabble's case obscene but not heard.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:45 am

DCB wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:I financed the fund through deductions from my paycheck. It's an insurance program paid for by mandatory contributions. I earned my Social Security.

Which is obvious to anybody who is reasonably literate.


DCB, Henry,

Have you read Fleming V Nestor to see what the Supreme Court ruled on whether SS is earned or not? It is pretty clear.

I suggest that you read their findings and if you still think SS is earned and if you still think you have any legal right to it let me know.

We can then discuss it.

Until then, there doesn't seem much point in further discussion.

John Henry

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:58 am

peripat wrote:You mean that money the recipients then spend on food, clothing and the like? i think that money means job creation which benefits everyone, does it not?


Two problems with this, Peripat:

First, if it did not get taken from taxpayers (at gunpoint) it would still be spent. Much of it on job creating things like you mention. Perhaps more efficiently, perhaps less, but it would still be spent.

Second you seem to think I have been railing against welfare payments. I thought I had been clear that I was making no judgement about whether they are a good or bad thing. In fact, since I expected this kind of dishonest response, I have been careful to say over and over that I was not making a judgement on their worthiness.

Some welfare is a good thing, some is not, IMHO. I'll be happy to discuss which is and is not if you like.

All I was trying to do, beginning with student loans, is put the proper name on it.

BTW: If you want to create jobs, would not the best thing be to abolish all income taxes on incomes over $250,000 or so? Let that money go to job creation either via investment or spending. The same thing you point out that happens from welfare but without being filtered through all the layers of bureaucracy.

You might want to read this. It is short and fairly simple to understand. It has stood the test of time, about 150 years worth. Scroll down to 1.6, the Parable of the broken window. It reinforces your point about spending.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html

John Henry

rabble
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:02 am

Rich Schultz wrote:Or in Rabble's case obscene but not heard.

Fuck you too, dick. Get out of the kitchen.

Henry Vilas
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:05 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
DCB wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:I financed the fund through deductions from my paycheck. It's an insurance program paid for by mandatory contributions. I earned my Social Security.

Which is obvious to anybody who is reasonably literate.


DCB, Henry,

Have you read Fleming V Nestor to see what the Supreme Court ruled on whether SS is earned or not? It is pretty clear.

If it is "pretty clear" then put it in your own words. Make a cogent argument and support it with facts, if you can. A vague reference to a guy named Nestor doesn't cut it.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:39 am

Henry Vilas wrote:If it is "pretty clear" then put it in your own words. Make a cogent argument and support it with facts, if you can. A vague reference to a guy named Nestor doesn't cut it.


Hardly vague reference to a guy named Nestor. It is a reference to a Supreme court case that was specifically about whether SS benefits were earned or not.

Since you seem unable to look things up, here is a link:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 3&page=603

Why in the world would you want to know what I say it says when you can look for yourself and see what it actually says? It is not that hard.

Since you do want it in my words, here goes: It says that SS benefits are not earned and nobody has any legal entitlement to them.

Now if you think it says something different, knock yourself out. I suggest that you read the decision first.

John Henry

Henry Vilas
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:46 am

You say that I should have proven your point. Sorry, I won't do your homework for you.

A citation to a Supreme Court decision is not an argument. Can't you say it in your own words? You could always reference specific quotes from the USSC decision.

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby pjbogart » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:51 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Have you read Fleming V Nestor to see what the Supreme Court ruled on whether SS is earned or not? It is pretty clear.


Have you read the cases "Citizens United v. Democracy" or "Millions of Clueless Dullards v. Obamacare"? Sometimes even the Supreme Court uses rationalizations to reach their preordained and politically motivated opinions.

The notion that Flemming v. Nestor would be decided under the same rationale today is absurd. Nestor was deported for having belonged to the Communist Party two decades earlier. Not only is this a violation of his right to free speech and association, it's a violation of the Takings Clause as well, regardless of how few sticks he possessed in his bundle. I'm not even saying that the current Supreme Court would overturn Flemming v. Nestor, I'm just saying that the rationale used is outdated. It's kind of like Roe v. Wade, the decision stands but don't cite it because the only thing that makes any sense is the holding (and even that's pretty shaky).

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby O.J. » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:20 am

Meade wrote:How has the Obama government done over the last 3+ years to build and repair the infrastructure needed by business to succeed? We need a report card.


Image

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby wack wack » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:21 am

Meade wrote:Here's my question:
Roads and bridges, right? Infrastructure?
So what has Obama done in the last 3 years? Anyone know?


Here's my question: when your big brother grabs you by the wrist, and begins slapping you in the face with your own hand while asking, "why are you slapping yourself? Why are you slapping yourself?" Are you really slapping yourself? Does anyone really believe you're slapping yourself?

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:24 am

pjbogart wrote:The notion that Flemming v. Nestor would be decided under the same rationale today is absurd. Nestor was deported for having belonged to the Communist Party two decades earlier.


So perhaps you can tell me where I can find information that SS is earned and that one does have a right to it?

Or are you just going to argue by assertion?

Re Obamatax, the Supremes used the same logic that Justice Harlan Stone suggested for SS in 1933. He said Make it a tax rather than an insurance. If Obamacare was an insurance, it would have been unconstitutional. It is constitutional only because it is a tax. The logic in reaching the conclusion that it is a tax is pretty tortured. But once they reached that conclusion, there is no question that it is constitutional.

I am pretty sure than I even posted about this here before the decision was handed down. If not here, I know I have been discussing it elsewhere for quite a while. Pretty much since the day after the law passed.

And we will have no more legal right to it than we do to SS.

John Henry


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