"Somebody else did that"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
peripat
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby peripat » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:33 am

Oh heck- by his definition all infrastructure, all government is 'welfare'. If you didn't 'pay' for something directly using some form of currency you created yourself (labor, barter, lumber you grew and harvested on your own land) it counts as welfare. Think about what that word means and what the right wing wants it to mean.

rabble
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:38 am

Okay, so just to get back to something close to the topic, is there a name for the grammatical error that Vinnie and the rest of the wingnuts are capitalizing on? The one where "that" technically should refer to the most recent noun "business" rather than "roads and bridges?"

I mean, everyone knows what Obama was saying but instead of going "Oh, look, he used bad grammar" they're trying to get some mileage out of the technical meaning rather than the one that was obviously intended.

Which in today's world is probably the safest bet.

Detritus
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Detritus » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:44 am

rabble wrote:Okay, so just to get back to something close to the topic, is there a name for the grammatical error that Vinnie and the rest of the wingnuts are capitalizing on? The one where "that" technically should refer to the most recent noun "business" rather than "roads and bridges?"

I mean, everyone knows what Obama was saying but instead of going "Oh, look, he used bad grammar" they're trying to get some mileage out of the technical meaning rather than the one that was obviously intended.

Which in today's world is probably the safest bet.

It's not a grammatical error. There is nothing grammatically wrong with what Obama said. I'm sure linguistics specialists have some odd, polysyllabic word for it, but I've always known it as "unclear reference" or "vague antecedent."

But even if Obama had repeated the subject ("That infrastructure--you didn't build it" or some such) it wouldn't have mattered, since anything he says is obvious evidence of crypto-Islamo-Socialist Fascist leftism or whatever.

Whatever. Hey, JFH, let's us know what it's like to die of cholera after you follow your principles and refuse both public hygiene and readily available antibiotics, neither of which you built and both of which were extorted from you at gunpoint.

rabble
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:10 am

Detritus wrote:But even if Obama had repeated the subject ("That infrastructure--you didn't build it" or some such) it wouldn't have mattered, since anything he says is obvious evidence of crypto-Islamo-Socialist Fascist leftism or whatever.

Yes, but then they'd actually be arguing facts instead of fabrications. They could argue that the tone is unfriendly to business or that he is making light of the work and inherent risk of starting up a business even when given an infrastructure and the freedom to use it.

Instead, they chose the fake argument (by which I mean, the one which requires that they lie through their fucking teeth) which by an amazing coincidence is easy to remember and has the shortest sound byte.

fennel
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fennel » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:13 am

Just came across this: The Big Jobs Myth: American Workers Aren't Ready for American Jobs
The Manpower survey also suggests another possibility. When firms were asked why they have difficulty hiring, 55% picked "lack of available applicants," but essentially the same percentage, 54%, said candidates are "looking for more pay than is offered" (many more than the 40% selecting lack of "hard" skill). This is an important reminder that the labor market is a market.

snoqueen
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:02 pm

...is there a name for the grammatical error that Vinnie and the rest of the wingnuts are capitalizing on?


It can be called an unclear antecedent. "That" refers to something, but what it refers to (its antecedent -- the thing that came before) is ambiguous enough that people who prefer not to find the most sensible and intuitive antecedent can make a big deal out of misunderstanding it.

(What is the antecedent of the last "it" in that sentence? See? Misplaced and unclear antecedents happen all the time, though careful editing can help -- and I am a frequent offender in the antecedent department. The general rule, often broken even in good writing, is the closest preceding noun or noun-substitute is the first candidate to be the antecedent.)

Arguing about the antecedents in Obama's speech is a glaring example of grasping at straws because there's nothing substantive to go on -- an entertaining right-wing mirror-image of Clinton and the meaning of "it." If Obama made a deliberate and concrete argument that they could criticize, the wingnuts wouldn't have to find little verbal ambiguities to blow sky-high.

rabble
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Earlier this afternoon, as I was absentmindedly googling the word "antecedent" in a halfhearted attempt to get a little more familiar with the things I should have learned in seventh grade, I came across this little clip from the Daily Show.

Okay so it's a nine minute little clip but it's pretty good stuff. You one percent buttkissers won't like it though, because you guys are so clenched.

snoqueen
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:36 pm

Hilarious. He even throws in the Clinton reference. Mashup in the last minute is a must-watch for everybody including our resident wingnuts but...

what do you bet they've got their fingers jammed in their ears and won't look?

DCB
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby DCB » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:49 pm

I went back to one of Vinnie's first posts and found this:
Vinnie P wrote: I bought and paid for the United States Marine Corps.

That's a direct quote! Can you believe this guy?

snoqueen
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:52 pm

Here's another direct-quote Vinnie-ism:

The only part of my education that you had anything to do with paying for was Basic Training and Officer Training School while I was in the service.


Wait. You were in the Marines? Who do you think pays for the entire Marines, all its programs, all its equipment, everything that makes it what it is and made you who you were as a Marine from the day you entered to the day you left?

You didn't become a Marine and serve all by yourself with just your bare hands. You were eating our food, wearing our uniforms, flying on our planes, working on our technology, and/or using our ammo in our guns. Our congress appropriates our money to make it all happen. And you'll be eligible for some good quality government-paid healthcare when you're old and sick, if you need it. It's almost socialist how that works.

Never thought about that before, did you? Or was it just a few years of sin before you saw the light and left?

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:22 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:How is Social Security unearned?


How is it earned?

Like most Americans, including myself for many years, you probably think of SS as an insurance. It was originally intended to be an insurance. Govt tries its darndest to lead us to believe that it is an insurance.

But as Justice Harlan Stone told Sec Labor Perkins, if FDR had tried to make it an insurance the Supremes would have struck it down as unconstitutional. He told her to make it a tax instead which is what happened. (And why the Supremes upheld Obamatax)

We pay an income tax that goes to the general fund. Currently about 15-1/2 on gross income, deducted at your paycheck. There is a fiction that that goes into an individual SS account. SS will even give you a statement that shows how much you have in your "account"

In reality, you do not own that account or have any rights to it other than what Congress may decide on any given day. If a 50% +1 in the House and Senate plus the president decided tomorrow, they could kill all SS benefits and designate the SS taxes to be used to fund National Parks. If they did there is nothing, legally, any of us could do about it.

It is not like a pension where one has a legal/contractual claim. The only thing that protects SS benefits is politics.

The SS taxes we pay are simply an income tax.

The benefits that many get are simply welfare payments given on sufferance by the govt. Just like food stamps or any other welfare payment.

John Henry

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:24 pm

peripat wrote:Oh heck- by his definition all infrastructure, all government is 'welfare'.


Nope. Transfer payments to individuals are welfare.

Things like roads, bridges etc that go to everyone and not to specific individuals are hardly welfare.

John Henry

Meade
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Meade » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:34 pm

snoqueen wrote:Hilarious. He even throws in the Clinton reference. Mashup in the last minute is a must-watch for everybody including our resident wingnuts but...

what do you bet they've got their fingers jammed in their ears and won't look?

That Jon Stewart piece was very well done.
Here's my question:
Roads and bridges, right? Infrastructure?
So what has Obama done in the last 3 years? Anyone know?

Government has a job to do and Business has a job to do. I think we can all agree on that. If Obama wants to chastise the taxpaying private sector for our insufficient appreciation of government, if he wants to point out all the benefits of government, let him begin by demonstrating exactly what federal government, under his leadership, has accomplished in building "roads and bridges".

How has the Obama government done over the last 3+ years to build and repair the infrastructure needed by business to succeed? We need a report card.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:36 pm

Mea culpa, I was wrong. Jonathon Chait explained it to me in small words and now I understand what Obama meant:

"The key thing is that Obama is angry, and he’s talking not in his normal voice but in a “black dialect.” This strikes at the core of Obama’s entire political identity: a soft-spoken, reasonable African-American with a Kansas accent. "

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/re ... works.html


I was wrong. I am sorry. Bigot that I am, I just could not get past that Kansas accent. It screwed up my brain cells or something.

I am still trying to figure out where the Kansas accent came from (or the black dialect, for that matter). I think he has spent a lifetime total of less than 6 hours in the state. Has anyone else noticed a black Kansas dialect before? Or is it a Kansas black dialect?

If Chait says it, it must be so. And in New York Mag, no less.

John Henry

Henry Vilas
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:37 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:How is Social Security unearned?

How is it earned?

I financed the fund through deductions from my paycheck. It's an insurance program paid for by mandatory contributions. I earned my Social Security.


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