"Somebody else did that"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
TeachInPeace
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby TeachInPeace » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:08 am

Who, if they have an income that enables repayment doesn't repay student loans? I lived on the bare minimum in college (like everyone) to only end up taking out about 10,000 for undergrad. This was after they cut Pell Grants and raised tuition in the same year. I paid off those loans in 3 years. It takes people a long time, but pretty much everyone I know who has loans is trying to pay them back.

On an unrelated note - speaking of paying collectively for what a small subset consumes - why is my liberal arts degree (basically the same one my great uncle earned from the UW in the early 60s) so astronomically expensive? I always assume it's to pay for all the science stuff and sports that cost real money, but I took all of 3 science classes in 4 years, and never attended a sporting event. WHy do I have to subsidize that, when I can do all my learning with a library and a laptop?

rabble
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:37 am

Yeah I thought so.

I wonder what the previous sentence in that quote was...
Hmmmm.....

google google google.

Ah. Here we go:
Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

Goodness. He was talking about the infrastructure. And YOU, you're claiming he was referring to your business.

Damn. Who the hell did you fuck over to get your business up and running?

jonnygothispen
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:50 am

Vinnie P wrote:
Yes. Yeah, the one I linked was just a clip, but I've seen the entire speech.

My dad is a hell of a lot more pissed off about it than I am. So first you lied, now you keep on with the name calling (pretty much more lies). I see a trend.
And you're both feeding into the mass hysteria of taking something out of context because you were inclined to dislike the guy in the first place. What you're doing is an insult to everyone who came before you and set things up so you have the opportunity to succeed. They're the ones who should be "pissed."

snoqueen
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:54 am

Student loans are going to get paid back one way or the other unless the person with the loan has almost no income and is not garnishable. You see, those loans can't be discharged by bankruptcy -- congress wrote that specifically into the law as a way to underwrite the bankers (lenders) using the power of legislation to secure the loans with backing from the national treasury. (Interesting distraction: how do you like that?)

Even if you encounter some extreme personal disaster and can't pay any of your other debts, your student loans will stay with you pretty much until you die.

So get that straight before you start claiming people blow them off and get a free education. About the only way to make that happen is work for so little you're way under the poverty line and cannot be garnished, or maybe disappear and live off the grid and eat road kill.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:59 am

HawkHead wrote:How is a student loan welfare? It's a loan that is paid back. Sure you can argue about the lower interest rates but since my clients have loans in the 2%-6.5% range we aren't talking about a huge discount if any.


If the loan were issued like any other loan and paid back like any other loan, it would not be welfare.

I am not up on all the ins and outs of student loans but my understanding is that there are preferences in qualifying for the loan that a non-student would not get.

The loans can be forgiven under certain circumstances.

The interest rate is artificially low.

Payment terms are artificially long.

No collateral is required.

So to the extent that the above apply, they are welfare.

We can discuss whether they are justified or not. We could discuss whether any particular welfare is justified or not.

Justification does not change the fact that it is still welfare.

Snoqueen is right abut being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, I understand that payments are capped at some percentage of income and may be below the actual interest causing the amount owed to continually increase. I understand that if a loan is not paid off in 20(?) years because of inability to pay, it is forgiven.
John Henry

jonnygothispen
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:03 am

True, student loans are welfare- when educated people join the workforce in skilled positions, they provide a higher quality service for everyone involved- including you, John Henry.

Detritus
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Detritus » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:56 am

Government-guaranteed student loans, when not abused by banks and for-profit privateers, are not "welfare." They are an investment that we all make in our future as a creative nation filled with intelligent, informed, citizens. When those loans are abused by banks and for-profit privateers, they do become "welfare," and the recipients of that welfare are the banks and privateers. The students who run up the loans--in the last ten years, overwhelmingly young, Black, women enrolled in very expensive online for-profit organizations--are simply the medium to transfer that welfare from the taxpayers to the banks and privateers. In the process, the students waste their own time and money, and even if they default on the loans, have ruined credit records that will be a permanent impediment to their futures.

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:02 pm

Detritus wrote:Government-guaranteed student loans, when not abused by banks and for-profit privateers, are not "welfare." They are an investment that we all make in our future as a creative nation filled with intelligent, informed, citizens....
Exactly what I tried to say. If they're "welfare," they're for the welfare of all of us.

Detritus
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Detritus » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:04 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:
Detritus wrote:Government-guaranteed student loans, when not abused by banks and for-profit privateers, are not "welfare." They are an investment that we all make in our future as a creative nation filled with intelligent, informed, citizens....
Exactly what I tried to say. If they're "welfare," they're for the welfare of all of us.

A concept which, contrary to the bloviating from the right, is actually enshrined in our Constitution.

WestSideYuppie
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby WestSideYuppie » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:21 pm

TeachInPeace wrote:On an unrelated note - speaking of paying collectively for what a small subset consumes - why is my liberal arts degree (basically the same one my great uncle earned from the UW in the early 60s) so astronomically expensive? I always assume it's to pay for all the science stuff and sports that cost real money, but I took all of 3 science classes in 4 years, and never attended a sporting event. WHy do I have to subsidize that, when I can do all my learning with a library and a laptop?


You could have done all your learning with a library and a laptop, without paying tuition. [/sarcasm]

I have a science degree. My parents paid my college tuition, but I got a full ride plus salary to attend grad school. In addition, the NSF spent about $500k for the equipment and facilities to run my thesis experiment.

I was handed a pile of free money, with no requirement to pay it back. How's that for welfare? On the other hand, the work that I've done with my knowledge and skills, over the subsequent years, has directly stimulated growth in business, employment, and tax revenue. I've produced a handsome return on the government's investment.

Now, I suspect that your high tuition was probably due to declining subsidies, rather than increases in the cost of science education. In my perfect world, tuitions would be lower and subsidies higher, so that an English major would not feel like they were subsidizing a Physics major.

pjbogart
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby pjbogart » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:52 pm

Vinnie P wrote:Are you trying to claim that the video is a fake?

You claimed he didn't say it, the video clearly shows that he did. Spin all you want, but don't lie to me. I don't like liars.


Vinnie P wrote:Chump? You see this is ultimately the problem. You start out with "fightin' words" and then you go on to put words in my mouth that were never there, and then spew a bunch of other crap based on false assumptions. Why should I even bother to continue the conversation when you (and some others) refuse to keep it civillized and honest?


So let me get this straight, people who actually bothered to watch the video and read the transcript are liars for putting the President's statements into context, but the very suggestion that you're a chump because you carry water for billionaires is so offensive that you simply can't continue the conversation?

Are you trying to "keep it honest", Vinnie? Really? Well, if that's the case, then you must be mistaken about what the President actually said. Perhaps you should go back and read the transcript. Um... you'll need to read more than one sentence, by the way.

DCB
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby DCB » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:54 am

Vinnie P wrote:Lie to me. I like liars.

When I started this business, that was just stupid teenage rebellion.

Good to know.

bdog
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby bdog » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:02 am

pjbogart wrote:... context...

Yes.

Running with "you didn't built that" or "palm trees at the Capitol" dumbs the whole conversation down.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:09 am

Detritus wrote:Government-guaranteed student loans, when not abused by banks and for-profit privateers, are not "welfare."


Any monies that are taken by government from one taxpayer ("at gunpoint" as OJ pointed out the other day) and transferred, unearned, to someone else, is "welfare".

Food stamps, Medicaid, Medicaid, Title 8 housing, Social Security pensions and a myriad of other programs including student loans and other student subsidies.

All of them are unearned by the recipient. All of them are welfare. I don't see what else you can call it.

It may be justified. It may benefit society. It may be a good thing to do for a lot of different reasons.

It is still welfare.

It is not even charity. Charity is given voluntarily.

John Henry

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:18 am

How is Social Security unearned?


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