Affirmative Action

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Huckleby
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Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:32 am

The Supreme Court is going to decide in the fall whether racial preferences for college admissions are constitutional. I hope they roll back affirmative action.

We've had affirmative action for 40 years. I would say it has been a spectacular success, and by that I don't mean to imply that the job of broad economic equality is close to being achieved. It has worked for people and business. Affirmative Action is a severe remedy, like Kemo Therapy, because it inherently inflicts an injustice as part of the treatment. I can't see making affirmative action (such as it is structured) a permanent part of our socieity.

I am all for helping disadvantaged people get a leg-up. Why can't we base affirmative action strictly on income? In 2012, don't impoverished white kids have a much higher cultural/economic barriers to fight than middle class blacks? I have a close friend who came from Appalachia, she's the only one in her extended family ever to go to college. That lack of preparation/expectation was a hell of a ditch to climb out of.

If you go with poverty-based AA, you are going to catch a lot disadvantaged minorities. And there won't be the injustice, resentment, stigma associated with race/gender based preferences.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Stu Levitan » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:14 am

We are less than 50 years past Brown v. Board of Education. We are less than 40 years since the Voting Rights Act.

Class-based AA is certainly appropriate. But there are blacks in the job market whose parents could neither vote nor attend a decent school. So, no, the need for race-based affirmative action has NOT passed.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby bdog » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:51 am

AA applied when someone is applying to college is way too late.

Put that effort into things like Madison Prep. Give them AA before they are in jail or dead.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:31 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:We are less than 50 years past Brown v. Board of Education. We are less than 40 years since the Voting Rights Act.

Class-based AA is certainly appropriate. But there are blacks in the job market whose parents could neither vote nor attend a decent school. So, no, the need for race-based affirmative action has NOT passed.

You may have Y2K technical issues, we're approaching 60 and 50 year since those events.

Most of the black kids applying for college today are the children of well established and educated middle class parents.

The justification for affirmative action was a rememdy for the legacy of slavery. Why are hispanics and asians now part of it?

Middle class black kids, with parents who have probably emphasized education, are not more disadvantaged than poor white kids, who likely were not supported at home or at school like their suburban cousins.

No affirmative action plan is perfect. I basing AA on income, at this particular stage of our social evolution, will create the most social justice, with the minimum of injustice. Income-based affirmative action is going to catch black and hispanic kids in very high numbers.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:40 pm

bdog wrote:AA applied when someone is applying to college is way too late.

Put that effort into things like Madison Prep. Give them AA before they are in jail or dead.

This is so true. But it's not the whole story.

I went to a college (U.S. Coast Guard Academy) for a couple years that was filled with kids from across the country, with wildly different backgrounds. It was obvious to me that the rich kids from the northeast were ahead of midwest kids like myself, and way ahead of kids from poorer southern states. Students from private schools had several semesters of calculus, much better preparation in history and other subjects. But us dummies caught up.

I'm guessing that some of the kids from poorer backgrounds do worse on SAT's. So give Affirmative Action admissions boost for low income. There are a lot of smart poor kids who can catch up.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Detritus » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:15 pm

Huckleby wrote:The justification for affirmative action was a remedy for the legacy of slavery.

Link, please. This is not my understanding of AA at all.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Meade » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:34 pm

Huckleby might be thinking of LBJ's speech in 1965:
Nothing is more freighted with meaning for our own destiny than the revolution of the Negro American...In far too many ways American Negroes have been another nation: deprived of freedom, crippled by hatred, the doors of opportunity closed to hope...But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair...This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result...To this end equal opportunity is essential, but not enough, not enough.
[...]
We will increase, and we will accelerate, and we will broaden this attack in years to come until this most enduring of foes finally yields to our unyielding will.

But there is a second cause--much more difficult to explain, more deeply grounded, more desperate in its force. It is the devastating heritage of long years of slavery; and a century of oppression, hatred, and injustice.

SPECIAL NATURE OF NEGRO POVERTY
For Negro poverty is not white poverty. Many of its causes and many of its cures are the same. But there are differences-deep, corrosive, obstinate differences--radiating painful roots into the community, and into the family, and the nature of the individual.

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/archives.hom/speeches.hom/650604.asp

Huckleby
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:35 pm

Detritus wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The justification for affirmative action was a remedy for the legacy of slavery.

Link, please. This is not my understanding of AA at all.

why do you think a meaure as harsh as affirmative action was originally justified?

It's true that other groups piggy-backed onto the train, but I don't think federal affirmative action would have garnered public support without the intense problem of black poverty, and riots of the 1960's.

Other immigrant groups have managed to (eventually) advance into the middle class without AA. African American carried a deeper burden of prejudice, unique and seperating experience of slavery, and the civil war didn't really end until about 1980.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby peripat » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:00 pm

Huckleby wrote: Other immigrant groups have managed to (eventually) advance into the middle class without AA. African American carried a deeper burden of prejudice, unique and seperating experience of slavery, and the civil war didn't really end until about 1980.


I don't think it has ended yet. Remember the posters on madison.com (who are probably the reason they effectively shut down comments eventually) or the Madison Police Department's war on hip hop (since they have even caused venues serving black customers that never had problems to eliminate hip hop acts while bars with fights, knives and largely white customers continue on their merry way)

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Meade » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:09 pm

Affirmative Action for African-Americans will no longer be needed if and when we reach a time when the only difference between Americans is the color/pallor of their skin. Justice Sandra Day O'Conner thought that would be sometime around 2028. Justice Thomas said that continued reliance on Affirmative Action "[...] can only weaken the principle of equality embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the Equal Protection Clause." He cited Justice John Marshall Harlan's famous dissent in Plessy v Ferguson: "Our Constitution is color-blind, and neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens."

My own opinion is that Affirmative Action is no longer needed and mostly benefits special white Americans like Stu Levitan.

Huckleby
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:11 pm

It's a matter of judgement and opinion, but I would say a lot of the changes put in motion in the 50's, 60's and 70's really took root in the 80's. A lot more black middle class, blacks more widely in popular culture, I think overt racism in the South was mostly done. Ya, sure, you can argue that the civil war will never end.

I like what affirmative action has done, I am for continuing affirmative action. But it is time to retarget. Middle class black, asian, hispanic kids should not be advantaged over poor white kids in college admissions, that is unsupportable. To the considerable extent that blacks & hispanics have not achieved economic equality, well, they would be proportionally aided by income-based AA.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Cornbread » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:34 pm

bdog wrote:AA applied when someone is applying to college is way too late.


Wonderful post. :D It's very true.

Along your lines, so how's affirmative action been in the schools of democrat ran milwaukee for the last, say since, the 64 voting rights act?

Put that effort into things like Madison Prep. Give them AA before they are in jail or dead.


One thing to consider--there are more things in life other than schools. So how have all those chicago transplants been doing at madison east? They're getting a whole lot more of everything than they did in chicago.

How's things going at east?

If the affirmative action is applied to jobs/set asides, it's just flat out racist, period.

Yup, Martin Luther King would indeed be a Conservative today because he's all about judging people, not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Igor » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:10 pm

peripat wrote:or the Madison Police Department's war on hip hop


Given that Noble Wray is the Chief of Police, I assume that you are
of the opinion that the racism is coming from higher up? Are you thinking Soglin, the city council, or Scott Walker?

The war is not on hip-hop. The war is on douchebag hip-hop fans with guns. The police are simply at a loss how to shut down the one without shutting down the other. I would be interested to hear your thoughts - are there valid suggestions that have not been implemented?

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby bdog » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:03 am

peripat wrote:...while bars with fights, knives and largely white customers continue on their merry way

You should bring that up in "The knife thread".

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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:36 am

Huckleby wrote:Affirmative Action is a severe remedy, like Kemo Therapy, because it inherently inflicts an injustice as part of the treatment. I can't see making affirmative action (such as it is structured) a permanent part of our socieity.

I am all for helping disadvantaged people get a leg-up. Why can't we base affirmative action strictly on income? In 2012, don't impoverished white kids have a much higher cultural/economic barriers to fight than middle class blacks? I have a close friend who came from Appalachia, she's the only one in her extended family ever to go to college. That lack of preparation/expectation was a hell of a ditch to climb out of.

If you go with poverty-based AA, you are going to catch a lot disadvantaged minorities. And there won't be the injustice, resentment, stigma associated with race/gender based preferences.

I am so glad a lefty brought it up so a righty doesn't have to. Affirmative Action today has become a liberal monstrosity. The question everyone needs to ask is:

"On what basis is it justified to give one student a definitive progressive advantage over another?; to give one worker a job over another; to give one employee a raise over another; to give one advancing worker a promotion over another?"

Affirmative Action applies to every one of these scenarios, because the law requires that it is on the justifaction of race, sex or even sexuality that one person deserves a degree, a job, a raise and a promotion over another.

Is this truly just, in this time? Ex: my grandmother was a member of a minority group that was treated badly in the past (fiction) - therefore when we are both up for a promotion, I deserve to get the job and you don't..... right?

Democratic US Senator Jimm Webb, 2010 wrote:Lyndon Johnson's initial program for affirmative action was based on the 13th Amendment and on the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which authorized the federal government to take actions in order to eliminate "the badges of slavery." Affirmative action was designed to recognize the uniquely difficult journey of African-Americans. This policy was justifiable and understandable, even to those who came from white cultural groups that had also suffered in socio-economic terms from the Civil War and its aftermath.

The injustices endured by black Americans at the hands of their own government have no parallel in our history, not only during the period of slavery but also in the Jim Crow era that followed. But the extrapolation of this logic to all "people of color"—especially since 1965, when new immigration laws dramatically altered the demographic makeup of the U.S.—moved affirmative action away from remediation and toward discrimination, this time against whites. It has also lessened the focus on assisting African-Americans, who despite a veneer of successful people at the very top still experience high rates of poverty, drug abuse, incarceration and family breakup.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 09408.html


A ten year long 'recession' sucks, but it creates a really good opportunity to review the merits of A.A.

Why? Because when everyone's net worth has been devestated, when the middle class falls into poverty, when the monied jobs are gone and income stays the same even as our cost of living triples--both our progress in "removing the badges of slavery", and the pain and injustice of an outdated law are brought into stark contrast.

Now, picture yourself in a city at the height of the Great Depression. You and fifty other individuals are waiting in line to see who gets to work today. You all have families to feed, you all have bills far past due, you all owe money to anyone you could borrow it from: in a nutshell, you're part of a group whose every member is in a dire, needy situation; you're all in this together; essentially your situations are almost all exactly the same.

But, good news! Here comes the boss. What's that he says? Sounds like they need twenty people to work today. Well, how will the boss choose who to hire; who's families get to eat tonight; who will get an extension on their rent, and who will be sleeping out doors?

Merit? No. Random? No. In fact, the employer himself has no choice. The law requires him to hire first any applicant who is not white... okay, that's thirteen; seven more to go! Next, any applicant who is not male. That makes twenty! Thirty young and old white male oppressors walk home without a job, or any way to feed their family. Social justice... right?

In a lot of ways (non sequitur) I would prefer the Great Depression to this here "recession". I think all of us know in our bones that while this may not be the same collapse as the 1930's, that "recession" is not the word. Its like a "Late Depression", with consequences still to come. Like being soldiers in a war, we're all equalized and simultaneously diminished by this era. But instead of recognizing this and deftly adapting policies to fit our real emergency, progs are stepping on the gas pedal and accelerating the rate at which one group is allowed (nay, forced) to advance in front of the other.

People just like you and me who were born here, whose parents sacrificed just like yours or mine, are put in the line behind even people from other countries whose parents had nothing to do with the experience of American slavery, just because of their minority status. On what basis are these individuals more deserving of a degree, a job, a raise and a promotion, than your own kids and grandkids?

I recommend reading the whole Jim Webb article, its one of the best observations on the topic in a long time. He's one of yours, anyhow.


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