Democracy

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
jonnygothispen
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Re: Democracy

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:51 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
You think Palin is a Libertarian?


Yeah I do. But then I have read her book where she both says and demonstrates that she is. I suspect that you feel no need to read it but I'll recommend that you read it anyway.
Palin a libertarian? America's # 1 pork governor in 2008 when nominated for VP-In Palin’s 20 months in office, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita pork request in the nation. Her office alone requested $453 million of it.

Palin backed exporting Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) to Japan and other Asian Countries while Alaska businesses were closing due to shortages. Agrium permanently closed its plant near Kenai due to lack of local supply. Palin backed the extension anyway. “This is great news for the state and its residents.”

She also increased every Alaskan's take on every barrel of oil sold to the lower 48 (we paid for the pipeline) by over 50%,

As mayor, saddled Wasilla with $22 million in debt after starting with 0 debt; also hired a lobbyist who the City Paid $40,000 A Year, and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million.

Palin reduced progressive property taxes and increased a regressive sales tax, which taxed even food. She promoted tax cuts for corporate property owners, increasing Wasilla expenditures by 63%, & and paid for some of it by increasing overall taxes by 38%.

Palin increased salaries of govt employees by 67%, & increased spending on furniture/office supplies by 117%. She increased spending on outside professional services by 932%.

Plus dozens more anti-libertarian leanings, in reality.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: Democracy

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:18 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:There is nothing in the federal constitution giving anyone the right to vote for anything, for example.

Because of slavery, it's not in the original. After the Civil War its mentioned more than once. Or don't amendments count?



Which amendment did you have in mind, Henry?

the 15th?

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

The 19th?

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

Maybe the 26th?

"The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any
State on account of age."

You are going to have to show me where they grant any voting rights. There is a reason they are worded the way they are.

All they grant is that if a person would otherwise would be eligible, they can't be denied on the basis of age, gender, race etc.

There are still a number of reasons why states can prevent a person from voting. A black (15th) woman(19th) aged 19 (26th) who is a felon would still not be allowed to vote in some states. Most states prohibit non-state and non-US citizens from voting in elections.

There is nothing that says states have to let anyone vote. Even counting the amendments, the closest the federal Constitution comes is is Article 1 section 2 and that is fairly indirect.

John Henry

Donald
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Re: Democracy

Postby Donald » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:31 pm

In Bush v. Gore (2000), the majority found, "The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States."

The United States is not a democracy, and never has been. The ruling classes have found it useful to make us believe we have a right to vote for President. We don't. At most we vote for electors, but even then they can take away that vote at will. Pretty damn scary, and it's one reason we're done as a country.
Last edited by Donald on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jonnygothispen
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Re: Democracy

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:38 pm

The Supremes also said, in Bush V. America (He sued American voters, not Al Gore), that no part of that "ruling" can be used as a basis for law in any other case.

in part because:

The USSC essentially ruled that the electoral college was unconstitutional (doesn't give an equal value to each voter's vote).

The USSC created an arbitrary deadline out of thin air for counting votes that isn't written in law anywhere, federally or in Florida.

The USSC violated the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment by giving 0 value to 180,000 votes they feared, and full value to the votes that gave the results they wished for.

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Re: Democracy

Postby Cornbread » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:01 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:I would also say that the US is democratic because of state, not federal, constitutions.

Wasn't all this set up by our founding fathers, making this a constitutional republic rather than a democracy, thus "state's rights"?

There is nothing in the federal constitution giving anyone the right to vote for anything, for example.

So what's with the 64 CRA?
and what's with all these leftist race pimps/extortionists constantly suing/charging a violation of someone's "civil rights"?

Nor does the federal Constitution guarantee or even mention democracy at a state level. It says "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,states shall have a republican form of government..."


Thank You!

Now hopefully obama care will be ditched, and throw in the federal overreach of the interstate commerce clause, we can actually turn back in the direction of how this once great nation was meant to be like. Oh, and throw out obama and his facist pig tendencies. Nice start would be holder......

What gate to call it is the only question?

johnfajardohenry
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Re: Democracy

Postby johnfajardohenry » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:23 pm

pjbogart wrote:John, did you ever consider that Reagan, Bush and even Walker got things done because they had a legislature willing to work with them?


That was pretty much my point. For all the claims that they were stupid, they were still able to get people, even in the opposing party, to work out their differences.

Obama, even though he had an strong majority in both House and Senate til 2010 was able to get precious little done. He has been unable to pass a budget. In fact, he has been so good at getting bipartisan support that twice the Senate unanimously voted down his budget. One would think he could have gotten at least 1-2 demmies to break ranks and vote with him.

We can come up with all sorts of excuses why the dummies were able to accomplish a lot and the genius has been able to accomplish so little.

But in the end it is not about excuses. What matters is who was able to get stuff done.

He may be a genius, he may have tremendous amounts of charisma, he may have a reputation as a great orator and all that. (So people say, I've never seen evidence of any of that)

But he is just not competent as an executive/leader.

Why should he be? He has never had any experience at it.

FWIW: I think that is a good thing and is one of the reasons I support him over Romney. I am scared that Romney would actually be able to get a lot of stuff done and I don't like what he has in mind. Obama wants to do more or less the same stuff and I do not like it any better. I do trust him not to be able to do very much, though.

John Henry

Henry Vilas
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Re: Democracy

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:14 am

Yes, Johnny, the right to vote can be limited. So can any right recognized by our Constitution (speech, religion, bearing arms, etc.) So what is your point?

johnfajardohenry
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Re: Democracy

Postby johnfajardohenry » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Yes, Johnny, the right to vote can be limited. So can any right recognized by our Constitution (speech, religion, bearing arms, etc.) So what is your point?


You claimed that although there were no voting rights granted in the original constitution but there were voting rights added in amendments.

I assumed that you had in mind the 3 amendments that I mentioned. My point was to show that they did not grant any voting rights. States are still free not to let anyone vote for anything.

At least by a strict reading.

As I also mentioned, I would bet that were a state to eliminate popular voting the Supremes would find some emanation from a penumbra that prohibited them from doing that.

And before someone accuses me of something I did not say, I do think that elections by popular vote are generally a good thing.

John Henry

Henry Vilas
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Re: Democracy

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:16 pm

You quoted this from the 15th Amendment: "The right of citizens of the United States to vote..." Sounds like it specifically mentions the right for citizens to vote, despite all your quibbles.

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Re: Democracy

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:57 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:"Misunderestimate" is a term often associated derisively with Bush. It seems like a pretty good word though. I take it to mean "mistakenly underestimate".

As opposed to "accurately underestimate"?

There's already a word for "mistakenly underestimating" someone:
Underestimate.

massimo
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Re: Democracy

Postby massimo » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:16 pm

"Potatoe" is a spelling often associated derisively with Quayle. It seems like a pretty good spelling though.

Were people saying shit like this back in the good ol' days?

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Re: Democracy

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:30 pm

massimo wrote:Were people saying shit like this back in the good ol' days?
In the Good ol' days, you could chuse to spelle and capitalize Things any way you liked. "Its in the Constitution!" --Signed, Pensylvania


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