Egypt - depressing

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:35 pm

nutria wrote:
Cornbread wrote:Big surprise, Cornbread views allowing darkies the right to vote as being on the wrong side of history.

I didn't know the democrat party was in favor of blacks voting.
Funny, but history pretty much shows the democratic party always supporting slavery, jim crow laws, and fighting against school integration and voting.

But then again, not much more can be expected out of a democratic party that holds a former kkk grand wizard (democrat congressman robert byrd) in such high esteem.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:36 pm

snoqueen wrote:Geez, he's forgetting the entire point of the US involvement in WWII in the European theater.


and that was?

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:42 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Geez, he's forgetting the entire point of the US involvement in WWII in the European theater.


We wanted access to the French oil fields that the Germans had taken.


:D
Most people (accurately) think WWII was just a continuation of WWI, sort of like Gulf War II was just a continuation of Gulf War I (also accurate).

The weird thing is most people wrongly think our civil war was all about ending slavery.

There are so many great cases to be made for ending the government unionist domination of the schools and maybe we can start to educate our children again.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Madcity Expat » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Cornbread wrote:Most people (accurately) think WWII was just a continuation of WWI...

This is interesting. This and a few elements of your other posts suggest to me that you have studied history, at least some. Enough, at least, to convince me that you are being deliberately obtuse.

For example, if you have enough history to be aware of the "Second Thirty-Years-War Thesis" (clumsy, true, historians are not known for the elegance of their jargon) then you likely understand full well that the US political parties experienced a major realignment in the mid-20thc resulting in the South defecting from the Democratic Party and eventually settling in the Republican Party (the election cycles between 1964 and 1972, or possibly including 1980). Since the South is the seat of the ugly history you recited ("...supporting slavery...and voting"), and since the South has taken turns as the geographic heart of the Democrats (19thc through 1960s) and Republicans (1970s to present), it follows that BOTH parties are heir to the legacies of slavery and segregation, as well as emancipation and civil rights. Currently the South is the GOP's problem.

I know that's complicated - but actual historical events tend to be that way - as opposed to the redacted, rendered, inverted yarns you have spun in this thread. I suspect you know better.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:02 pm

Madcity Expat wrote:
Cornbread wrote:Most people (accurately) think WWII was just a continuation of WWI...

This is interesting. This and a few elements of your other posts suggest to me that you have studied history, at least some. Enough, at least, to convince me that you are being deliberately obtuse.

Studied some, talked to a lot of well informed people, english has been hit and miss with me, but I learned what "obtuse" was from geometry. ;)

Hopefully, some good conversation.

the US political parties experienced a major realignment in the mid-20thc resulting in the South defecting from the Democratic Party and eventually settling in the Republican Party (the election cycles between 1964 and 1972, or possibly including 1980).

Interesting points. 64 did change a whole lot in this country
LBJ, the ultimate democrat party deal maker, did lock up the "negro vote for the democrat party", but also the gun control act was passed.

72 was the mcgovern takeover of the democrat party, thus ending it as the party of the working family and making it the party of the affluent, white leftists.

80 I agree with because carter was the last hope for the thinking working family democrat and he failed on pretty much everything he did. Thus, President Reagan captured the Reagan Democrats. Bush (both versions) lost them, but the democrat party also never got them back.

Since the South is the seat of the ugly history you recited ("...supporting slavery...and voting"),

It was, but the central states and especially the north wasn't exactly a haven for blacks. You do know during the civil war, the north didn't favor freeing the slaves, btw, so the north in fact could be said to have been in support of slavery too. And the infamous pic of two black kids being lynched took place in indiana, not "the south". There's enough ugliness to pass around, north, south, central, black, white, brown, etc. as you agree.
(Good post btw).

Currently the South is the GOP's problem.

How's this?

I view things as more of our country being ruled by a handful of states that themselves are governed by a very large populated city that is ran by dysfunctional rulers that govern by who the give handouts to. Chicago relative to the rest of IL is a great example, but NY, MI, GA, WA, OR, etc. are all out there.

I know that's complicated

So it all can't be boiled down to "bush!" :lol:
Or "the rich"? Or "corporations"? Or.....

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:49 pm

Image

This is how Juan Cole analyses the electorate, from looking at the relatively high-turnout, first round of presidential race.
http://www.juancole.com/2012/06/mursi-a ... egypt.html

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:17 pm

Going to be interesting.
This is a great example of how an organized fringe minority (leftist democrats for example) can attain power, via 'community organizers', thuggery, terrorism, etc.

If the brotherhood can get control of the country, it could lead to very big trouble in the ME as they (as with leftists) view Israel as their sworn enemy and will open the southern front, something israel won't sit by and absorb. Oh, and let's not forget miserable president carter's present on the world--iran.

Egypt's military knows that the brotherhood starting a war with Israel would be disastrous. But so do the people of Egypt,now that their tourism dollars have plunged and they see nothing but war and religious repression in their future.

Didya read that turkish planes were shot down in syria? Most of Turkey's southern border is syria, with iraq and iran finishing it off.

What's going on in the middle east now is why the whole fluking world supported dictators in the middle east--they guaranteed the oil the world needed (needs, and will need for the next 50 years) and maintained stability in that volatile region.

President Bush freed Iraq and that changed the whole world.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:57 pm

I see such broadly dispersed population as a very good sign. It means that one faction is unlikely to dominate the country if and when democracy is established, they'll have to form coalitions.

I am at peace with the military coup, at this particular junction, probably the least bad option. The Muslim Brotherhood can be a positive player, in my view, but they clearly were getting a bit big for their britches. Hopefully change can come gradually and steadily. One good thing to come out of this phase is that a relatively accurate political census has been taken, and the results should encourage democracy.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:50 pm

Huckleby wrote:I see such broadly dispersed population as a very good sign. It means that one faction is unlikely to dominate the country if and when democracy is established, they'll have to form coalitions.

I am at peace with the military coup, at this particular junction, probably the least bad option. The Muslim Brotherhood can be a positive player, in my view, but they clearly were getting a bit big for their britches. Hopefully change can come gradually and steadily. One good thing to come out of this phase is that a relatively accurate political census has been taken, and the results should encourage democracy.

Admittedly I'm a bit surprised people get so wrapped up in this region's elections/government. I tried to avoid as many of these headlines as possible, yet I never had any doubt that this was the way it would end up. To my thinking, we in the states have so little concrete, verifiable information that getting emotionally involved in these outcomes is like a cat swinging itself by the tail.

With all due respect, I don't agree that we have any way to know how accurate this political census is, nor do we here have any way to verify it. I love elections too, but following these so closely is kind of like a choose your own adventure story except the end is always the same. Not only that but they are so far away, their language and culture are so different, that nothing we gauge them by will ever be more than 2nd or 3rd hand information, or worse. This entire Arab Spring narrative has been an excercise in self deception for Westerners. I fail to see the attraction...

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby pjbogart » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:37 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I fail to see the attraction...


Obama called to congratulate the Muslim Brotherhood on their victory.

I bet now you see the attraction!

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:38 am

Bludgeon wrote: With all due respect, I don't agree that we have any way to know how accurate this political census is, nor do we here have any way to verify it.
The analysis was done by somebody I know to be an honest broker. Juan Cole is a lefty who I sometimes disagree strongly with, but I've read his blog for 10 years, and he is brilliant guy of highest integrity. There were a lot of candidates in the first round of the election, and their views were pretty clear to someone who monitors Egyptian politics. I don't blame you for not trusting the analysis, but I'm confident it's meaningful. It matters a lot that Egypt is not dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, or any other particular philosophy.

Bludgeon wrote: Not only that but they are so far away, their language and culture are so different, that nothing we gauge them by will ever be more than 2nd or 3rd hand information, or worse. This entire Arab Spring narrative has been an excercise in self deception for Westerners. I fail to see the attraction...
You're mostly right. FOX and CNN stick a couple reporters in Tahrir Square, and they report back on their impressions of what is going on, and this is called "breaking news." The reporter for Syria is based in Beiruit.
When you call Arab Spring a "deception", I suspect that you are echoing the right wing view that the ARabs are a bunch of Muslims, and therefore will never have Democracy. You see the election of the Muslim Brotherhood as inevitible. My answer is that the Arab Spring is extremely positive, but just start of a 10-year, messy process.
I don't blame you for being disinterested in Mideast, since reporting is polyannaish and superficial. But you're wrong that place is unknowable. If you want to be an obsessive about it, there is good information to be pieced together if you look for it.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:37 am

Good response, I'll offer only clarifications. I'm not saying the AS is itself a deception - more, that its become something of a mirror for some... hopeful individuals who may be too vested in what they want to see, to the exclusion of actuality and probability, and trying to identify more than reason advises with similarities that may not be fully verified.

I don't put Cole in that group and I don't doubt his honesty.

Sorry to tread on your thread; I guess its a point of fascination for me that this region's representation is such a point of fascination for others.

My view on fundamentalist Islam is far separated from either party. While I'm not for banning memorials with religious imagery (non sequitur), I do have a problem when laws and religion converge in various ways to affect what people can and can't do and what they'll be punished for. While the same applies to Western examples, I generally classify countries where behavior is relegated by religious law, as 'temporarily hopeless'.

I suppose in the end I just don't understand Jew, Christian or Muslim. I don't get why anybody cares what religion a president is, but then again I don't know why 'atheists' go around posting their own version of the ten commandments. I suppose I hold the eventual growth of technology and prosperity to be the best hope for cultural problems like these, whereas political solutions trend toward the corrupt and the deadly.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:28 pm

Huckleby wrote:I see such broadly dispersed population as a very good sign.

Insurgency 101.
Guerrilla War 101.
Totalitarian Rule 101.
all the same, and then some.

If one rules the major population centers, one can run the whole area/state/nation/region. Great example is obama's IL. Cook county runs the whole state. Same with NY. Same with MI. Same with GA. Same with OR. Same with WA. etc.

Egypt is a 'modern' middle eastern country, but it's still north africa so there's not much outside of the transportation hubs. Let those on the outskirts of the consolidated power centers starve--Ooops, that's stalin. OK vietnam too. But you get my drift.

It means that one faction is unlikely to dominate the country if and when democracy is established, they'll have to form coalitions.

Coalition/parliamentary forms of government is just one step up in dysfunction from a democracy. How many governments has italy had in the last 20 years? Israel? Pure dysfunction.

But egypt now has their own country, so let's see where their western exposure will take them now that the community activists of islam are trying to enslave them. Ironic, but the egyptian military is "the people's" only hope at freedom.

I am at peace with the military coup, at this particular junction, probably the least bad option.

Our nation was started with the arms (and troops) of a (french) dictator. ;)

IMO, you are correct.

The Muslim Brotherhood can be a positive player, in my view, but they clearly were getting a bit big for their britches.

They could be, but their weakness is they are islamic fascists. (Which is probably why obama likes them). It's easy to bitch and moan, rail against those in charge, but when it's their turn, a lot of people lock up, turn into clueless douchebags. Did I mention obama yet? :D

The only way the MB can survive is to give up their shit. It's a three way race, military and the people vs. the islamic fascists.
God, I can't believe obama bowed down to the king of saudi. He's such a clueless DB. Come to think of it, our prezzie is the biggest impediment to a positive resolution to that part of the world. And the economy too. Heck, is it too early to ask him to just fluking retire? Fluke. He's such a detriment to civilization.

the results should encourage democracy.

Not to nitpick, but democracy is about the worst form of governing. If democracy were true, gays or any other minority would never have any rights. Parliamentary governance is better, but is little more than less domineering while a whole lot more dysfunction.

The best form of governance is ours--a Constitutional Republic, where "rights" are God given. The burned out old hag supreme court justice...shoot, I forgot her name, used to be an aclu mouthpiece...told egypt to not have a constitution like ours as it's limited as to what the government can do to its people.

Weird isn't it, that a supreme court justice of this constitutional republic, whose sole job is interpreting our Constitution, tells other countries not to have a constitution like ours as it's too limiting?

Interesting times...here and the world over.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:47 pm

Cornbread wrote:Not to nitpick, but democracy is about the worst form of governing. If democracy were true, gays or any other minority would never have any rights. .... The best form of governance is ours--a Constitutional Republic, where "rights" are God given.

I can't bear to have one more ideological talking point exchange, but I will speak my peace. This is semantic bullshit. By "democracy", nobody ever is refering to democracy in a pure and theoretical sense. We mean democracy with checks and balances, consideration for minority rights, representative democracy rather than direct democracy, typically a constitution declaring citizen rights, etc.

Nearly every country in the world has a constitution, including Iran. And yes, Iran's constitution does limit the power of the government, provides some checks and balances. They too are a "constitutional republic."

Wingers make a big deal out of this semantic crap because they hate government, and their interpretation of our constitution is that it is severely constraining. The empty posturing against straw man "democracy" is tiresome. And the far right does not get to define the constitution.

BTW, new nations used to look to our constitution as a model. In past 30 years, countries adopting constitutions have patterned them after European countries, whose constitutions assign more specific powers and obligations to the government.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Mad Howler » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:05 am

Huck, I know I just came after you on another thread. But you are right on, unfortunately change is very much ahead us populi's ability to know what has happened...

http://www.gregpalast.com/the-euro-is-a ... o-kidding/

It seems to me that people are becoming uncomfortable letting some things slide.


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