Egypt - depressing

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Cornbread
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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Sun May 27, 2012 10:33 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Cornbread wrote:So now, it'll just be up to the egyptians to see just how much they want individual freedoms.
With all the frightening violence, you can't blame people for leaning to law-and-order candidates.

Sometimes violence can be frightening--sometimes violence is the only answer. Freedom is rarely given away--it usually must be taken (as it's the God Given Birthright of humankind) from people trying to control/enslave you.

When people have lived under oppressive government control, when given their freedom, there's often a blowout. This is the time of a vacuum and stupid people take advantage of it--but also terrorists/criminals.

The communist vietcong is a wonderful example of the latter strategy--using terror and attacking the people's belief that their governors will be able to protect them. Infrastructure is attacked, medical/schools are attacked, any cooperation by anyone will be made an example of. The same thing happened in iraq--attacking power grids, blowing up civilians at bus stops, etc.

It's a pretty common--terror--and it's the only way a minority can overcome the majority.

Due to tourism, egyptians have been exposed to the west and they won't sit for being terrorized by a minority. Iran could be cast off into jimmy carter's wasteland because no one wants to go there. A lot of people want to see the pyramids, the nile, and such of egypt, so their economy has always been ran off that and the people progressed, modernized due to tourist dollars (marks, etc.).

If there is any fighting for freedom of being enslaved by islamists in egypt, you can bet there will be a LOT of other countries supporting the egyptian people fighting for their liberation. Zerobams won't because of his leftist fixation on hating israel, but other (non euro) countries will.

Oh, and don't forget the suez. If iran can shut down hormuz and the suez gets closed, the whole world will come to a crashing halt.
(Maybe zerobams will then OK domestic production and refining, but I doubt it--Heck, the dems here killed thousands of union jobs from mining because of their angry politics).

Don't be depressed. The middle east is becoming liberated.
That's been long overdue. BIA? Bush International Airport? :lol:

[syria] If you want to talk about DIRECT influence, I would say the Iran revolt, even though unsuccessful, got the Arab spring rolling in Tunisia and Egypt. I think the Iraq fledgling democracy might have had some influence in getting the IRanians into the streets.


Arabs don't like persians. But to be honest, historically, arabs have never liked other arabs and muslims have been slaughtering other muslims for a century or two. They're all so fluking tribal--but that's the nature of their retarded civilization. Christianity had their Reformation and they moved forward.
Islam had their reformation and they went backwards (wahabs).

Persia (iran) is an island between the middle east and the asian southwest. They're stuck.

Look at where syria is. Syria wouldn't have happened if the US never helped the people of iraq become independent and free--this is why syria and iran have (iran still is) fighting the free iraq so hard and why iran is helping support syria.

Iran needs Iraq to fail. Iran also needs assad (syria) to keep control of their people because, well if not, then lebanon will be cut loose and they can (after their civil war) become a country(ies) of their own being. That will lessen the iran backed hezbollah terrorism from south lebanon into israel. And on the other side of israel? Yup, egypt.

The whole world changed once Iraq was free. People get caught up in their petty, BS politics, but one thing is clear worldwide--the world is a FAR better place with Iraq being liberated. The arab world is changing.....and don't ever underestimate this picture:

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Cornbread
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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Sun May 27, 2012 10:43 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The U.S. policy towards the Middle East can be summed up with this question: What is our oil doing under your soil?


Actually, if there wouldn't be any oil in the middle east, no one would care much for it other than tourists going to egypt. The whole middle east would just be some strange place, sort of a living theme park to the pre-middle ages.

But I understand you have a political axe to grind.
Hack away.

For grins and giggles, how did europe do when russia invaded georgia? Didn't take germany (and other eurotrash) long to grab their ankles and let putin do whatever he wanted--it can get cold in germany and ol putin has his handle on their gas. :idea:

Where would england be w/o the north sea crude?
Why is something like 80% of france powered by nuclear power?
So many examples, but like I said, some folks seem to just have their personal political axe to grind....or toss.

Did you eat food today that was linked to oil in any way?
Clothing?
Power?
Plastics?
Do you own a car/truck? Take a bus?

You do know it takes energy to actually produce things, don't you?
I think there's some physics law about energy, but I don't remember exactly what it is. But when it all boils down to the sugar, it takes energy to make things, ship things, live, and we all can't be government employees, so the whole world needs energy from raw materials in the field to processing to manufacturing to distributing to consuming...and yes, to processing the waste from all of the above.

Huckleby
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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Sun May 27, 2012 11:27 pm

pjbogart wrote:Oil is a commodity, so no matter where it is or who's buying and selling, it affects our markets as well. And oil companies got plenty of access. They got what they wanted, you paid for it.

ya, I get that it's a world market for oil, so it doesn't matter that we get a small percentage of our oil from middle east.

BTW, most of the oil contracts in Iraq have gone to Chinese companies.

The odd thing to me is that China is getting a free ride. Why aren't they paying to safeguard the Persian Gulf oil flow? Maybe it is just force of habit.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Detritus » Mon May 28, 2012 10:57 am

Huckleby wrote:The odd thing to me is that China is getting a free ride. Why aren't they paying to safeguard the Persian Gulf oil flow? Maybe it is just force of habit.

China is the US's largest creditor. China IS paying to safeguard the Persian Gulf oil flow--by financing the debt the US has developed building a military larger than all the other militaries in the world combined.

It's called "checkbook diplomacy."

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Wed May 30, 2012 10:25 pm

Huckleby wrote:BTW, most of the oil contracts in Iraq have gone to Chinese companies.

So much for all the lefties screaming that the US just "invaded iraq to get their oil!!!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Come to think of it, I don't think the left has ever been on the right side of history, no pun intended.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu May 31, 2012 8:43 am

Cornbread wrote:Come to think of it, I don't think the left has ever been on the right side of history, no pun intended.

Are you saying Franco and the rest of the European fascists were not on the wrong side? They were the enemies of the left.

You know little of history.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby nutria » Thu May 31, 2012 8:50 am

Cornbread wrote:Come to think of it, I don't think the left has ever been on the right side of history, no pun intended.


Big surprise, Cornbread views allowing darkies the right to vote as being on the wrong side of history.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby snoqueen » Thu May 31, 2012 9:08 am

Geez, he's forgetting the entire point of the US involvement in WWII in the European theater.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby nutria » Thu May 31, 2012 9:36 am

snoqueen wrote:Geez, he's forgetting the entire point of the US involvement in WWII in the European theater.


If I remember correctly, wasn't it to bust unions, and make sure Obama wasn't born in Kenya? Also, democrat party and private school vouchers. Also, :lol: :lol: :lol:!!!

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby FJD » Thu May 31, 2012 10:11 am

nutria wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Geez, he's forgetting the entire point of the US involvement in WWII in the European theater.


If I remember correctly, wasn't it to bust unions, and make sure Obama wasn't born in Kenya? Also, democrat party and private school vouchers. Also, :lol: :lol: :lol:!!!


We wanted access to the French oil fields that the Germans had taken.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby jman111 » Thu May 31, 2012 11:32 am

But isn't dealing in absolutes so much easier than taking a nuanced view of events?

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Cornbread » Thu May 31, 2012 8:08 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:You know little of history.

Fascists in competition with facists don't interest me, but I do know they are the enemy of free loving people. One would think there's very little difference between the national socialist party and the world socialist party. They both fought each other in WWII. That's the trip about fascists--they claim to be separate, distinct from each other up until they have to face each other in direct competition for control of their serfs.

“Marxism is the guardian angel of capitalism. Vote National Socialist.”

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:59 am

The military more-or-less staged a coup yesterday via their allies on the supreme court. (hey, maybe they are becoming more American!)

I have gone back-and-forth on the mess in Egypt the last couple weeks, but I'm settled on the view that the "democracy" that has happened so far is bogus. To the military coup, I say good.

The parlimentary elections were bullshit. The military and Islamicists conspired to push them up before the new forces for democracy had a chance to organize parties.

The first round of presidential elections was closer to democracy, it was organized and honest enough to serve as a useful census of opinion, but again, the fact that 4 moderate candidates ran against one conservative Islamicist and one old regime guy left the largest plurality of the population without a voice.

Democracy is not just having a vote.

If the Islamicists had captured the presidency and parliament, they could not be trusted to continue democracy, IMO. That's why I prefer the shinanigans that just went down. The Islamicists would have had a thin veneer of democratic legitimacy. I think the remnants of the old regime will be easier to challenge by the liberal opposition.

The Muslim Brotherhood calmed peoples fears of strict sharia law during the Parliamentary elections by promising to not run a presidential candidate. Then when they won parliament, they double-crossed the public and went for the brass ring.

Fuck um. I have no problem with moderate Islamicists dominating the politics of the country once democratic institutions are in place. This is the wrong timing for a candidate from the consevative wing of the Muslim Brotherhood to take power. Until the reformers have a political party to unite behind, the old order is the lesser of two evils.

BTW, I heard one analyst reporting from Cairo say that he thought the majority of Egyptians are relieved (for the moment) that the Muslim Brotherhood has been neutered.

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Madcity Expat » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:26 pm

Cornbread wrote:Fascists in competition with facists don't interest me, but I do know they are the enemy of free loving people. One would think there's very little difference between the national socialist party and the world socialist party. They both fought each other in WWII. That's the trip about fascists--they claim to be separate, distinct from each other up until they have to face each other in direct competition for control of their serfs.


There is a school of thought that the extreme ends of the modern political spectrum, right and left, both equate to an equivalent state called totalitarianism. But no serious student of politics misunderstands fascism and communism as being synonymous.(1)

Fascists were (are) not communists. There are similarities - both are revolutionary utopian movements. But fascism was an ideology of the extreme right - hyper-nationalist, radically exclusive, with a vision of a perfection that envisaged a hierarchical social structure in which the strong rule the weak through the ruthless exercise of their will to lead.

Communism (of the Marxist variety) is an ideology of the extreme left. Of course envisioning a society of perfect equality (as opposed to fascism's perfect IN-equality). Nationalism, and national divisions are anathema, being the contrivance of the bourgeoisie. Social hierarchy is also despised, at least in principle. (In practice, communist states organized their own hierarchies. They were human beings, after all, and human beings always organize hierarchies.)

I don't know how much any of that made an impression on you Cornbread. But while it's legitimate (although not indisputable(2)) to suggest communist and fascist states were both totalitarian (and hence fundamentally similar). Perhaps that is what you were trying to say. But in any case, it is simply inaccurate and naive to characterize Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as "Fascists in competition with facists [sic]"

1) See, for example, Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism. George Orwell, of course, suggested in 1984 that totalitarianism characterized all the tyrannies of the mid-20thc.

2) Historians (as opposed to political scientists) tend to be quite critical of the theory of totalitarianism - see Ian Kershaw, Sheila Fitzpatrick. Historians generally eschew broad explanatory rubrics (political scientists love them)


Oh, and Huckleby - yea, bummer about Egypt, n' all

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Re: Egypt - depressing

Postby Huckleby » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:41 pm

anybody interested in egypt events should check Juan Cole's analysis:
http://www.juancole.com/2012/06/the-rev ... egypt.html

The situation is not great, but maybe the democracy advocates can get their political act together. Future not necessarily grim.


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