Can there be individual freedom....

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Mon May 28, 2012 1:23 pm

What happened again to a private sector business (boeing) wanting to move some of their production to another state (south carolina) again?


What happened indeed?

The plaintiff in the suit against Boeing, the machinists' union, approved a new contract with Boeing, approved by 74% of its membership, that said Boeing's newest plane will be built in Washington State by union members. With that, the union was willing to dismiss its complaint against Boeing regarding the SC plant.

SC workers and WA workers still have their jobs, Boeing is still making planes, and the process worked.

I'm not sure what you're complaining about. SC doesn't like unions, it's got a non-union plant. WA likes unions, they've got a union plant. Boeing wants to manufacture planes. It's fine.

A summary:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... st-boeing/

Now, when the SC plant decides to close or move, its workers haven't got much recourse. But as stella says, it's their choice, right? Not necessarily an informed or empowered choice, but one in keeping with the traditions in that part of the country.

The minimum wage has little to do with anything we've been discussing.

I don't know of anyone that works for min wage, so why all the leftist democrat propaganda about it then?


Don't ask me. You brought it up -- I figured you were trying to say something.

who gets to decide how much is enough for you, me or godzilla? Unions are stuck with their pre-negotiated wage, so good, bad, lame or lousy they all get the same.


The unions and employers negotiate a contract (as we've been trying to explain to you) and it remains in force usually until a new contract is signed. The union members are trading away a little bit of individual flexibility -- maybe -- for more job security and better pay for the membership as a whole.

This is what you don't get. Some people think their personal interest is part of a larger group interest, and that the good of the community, not just individualism, is socially valuable. What good is it if one machinist is making big bucks, if the other machinists he used to work with (and their families and kids) are sleeping in a car beside the curb? Some people actually care about one another, as you might find out too if you worked with other people for ten or twenty years.

(By the way, a prime example of all this is the military. People in the military care for each other above all else, as you might recall if you went to any Memorial Day events. They work for fairly basic pay at all pay grades, but compared with the private sector they have benefits galore for the rest of their lives including -- get ready for this -- healthcare. Buncha socialists, in fact.)

In society at large, the more things decay for those on the short end, the less delightful the lives of the few who benefit will become. If you think it's the best possible outcome to live behind a chain link fence and have all your stuff brought in by FedEx, have at it. It's not cheap.

If someone is really good and works really hard, shouldn't they get more money? And if so, how much?


The option of self-employment is always open. I was self-employed for years and years and did just fine. Nobody's stopping anybody from taking the same route -- it's just not possible to have everyone in the entire country be simultaneously self-employed, even if they wanted to. And a lot of people don't want to. I myself got tired of dealing with the general public after a couple decades and went back to working for a company. Either way has good and bad parts.

You and your friends on some board decide what my employer should pay me and anything more, you'll confiscate in the form of taxes?


Nobody's on any board deciding what any employer should pay you. If you're talking about the NLRB, they don't set wages (as explained earlier).

And I also explained earlier that we've had the income tax in this country for 99 years already and if you're still determined to kick and scream about it, go find a country where they don't have taxes of one sort or another. (The VAT is one alternative -- look it up.) Good luck with that.

Why do you want to control (and punish) me or others?


Heh. Why do you ask?

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Mon May 28, 2012 9:46 pm

snoqueen wrote:
What happened again to a private sector business (boeing) wanting to move some of their production to another state (south carolina) again?


What happened indeed?

The plaintiff in the suit against Boeing, the machinists' union,


So a union sued their employer because the employer wanted to move to another state? Then the NLRB sprung into action , also filing a lawsuit against the private business?

And people--OK, some people--wonder why so many businesses are leaving the US for elsewhere.

this is a great example of why leftists NEED the police power of The State because they need enforcement of their allies in government to maintain their monopoly position.

Many links if you want them, but the above premise is enough to show the fascist nature of leftists.

The unions and employers negotiate a contract (as we've been trying to explain to you) and it remains in force usually until a new contract is signed.


Or the business does something that threatens the unionista's monopoly position. Then the union thugs come in and/or government gets involved in lawsuits.

Or if the extorted unionista demands bankrupt a business, then government can step in and bail out the union (GM and TARP monies, not to mention community development block grants).

Nothing like distorting the fair market.

Gotta go.

Mad Howler
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Mad Howler » Mon May 28, 2012 10:54 pm

There can be none if we do not respect the right to assemble and organize. Odd that you ask right know about this as it is old news, but it is relevant. A struggle is a struggle so let me point you to some writtings of a publication that advocates for the type of liberalization you speak of, yet still wrestle with the ramifications (maybe not so much over the last 9 months).

http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpet ... ns-america

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... ing-v-nlrb

snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Mon May 28, 2012 11:30 pm

Good links that underscore the complexity of this whole issue (including one that explains the NLRB did not bring the suit against Boeing as corny seems to believe).

Or if the extorted unionista demands bankrupt a business, then government can step in and bail out the union (GM and TARP monies, not to mention community development block grants).

Nothing like distorting the fair market.


You really, really do not understand this.

However, you are so determined not to understand it I'm through trying to explain how it goes. I'd point out, though, that the government did not bail out a union, it bailed out GM which is a corporation. And TARP applied to financial institutions that do not in general have unionized labor to begin with.

Enjoy your stay on the other side of the moon, though.

Mad Howler
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Mad Howler » Tue May 29, 2012 12:20 am

snoqueen wrote:You really, really do not understand this.

However, you are so determined not to understand it I'm through trying to explain how it goes. I'd point out, though, that the government did not bail out a union, it bailed out GM which is a corporation. And TARP applied to financial institutions that do not in general have unionized labor to begin with.

Enjoy your stay on the other side of the moon, though.


Yep, well said. There are dirty words that some have come up with to describe well meaning people who endeavor to look at all sides of a situation, "nuanced" is one of them. You know...come to think of it the people who have projected these labels are right in line to claim providence over the works of some of this countries most important and "nuanced" thinkers. Who? Adams, Jefferson, Madison, et. al. Eat it heritage foundation, pfaw, pnac, fed-soc, POMBATMIR (piss on my back and tell me it's raining) foundation, etc; some of us are very upset with what your doing in this state, and a great many more will be once it is clear to them what kind of Faustian bargain they made.

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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby wack wack » Tue May 29, 2012 8:33 am

Can there be individual freedom... in a country where nearly half the population eschews education and the real knowledge gained from it in favor of counter-factual, hate-based belief?

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Wed May 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Mad Howler wrote:There can be none if we do not respect the right to assemble and organize.

I have no idea where you're going with this as I have no idea what you're talking about.

Who is denying you the right to assemble? Is this some leftist fabricated argument?
You also have the "right" to organize. But it's really not a "right" as businesses do not have to accept your 'organized group's' demand.

OK...unless it's a government union. They have a monopoly position which is why, FDR, when signing into law (not "right") to ALLOW collective bargaining in the PRIVATE workplace, specifically EXEMPTED government workers specifically due to their monopolistic position.

I think a more realistic argument on your part would be along the lines is zerobama showing the leftist tendency of fascism or just the chicago way of crony capitalism (with other taxpayer monies) when he bails out the unions at GM.

I say the second--it's all about the chicago way of paying off the soldiers at your beck and call. Ditch the NLRB. Come to think of it, I'd also ditch the dept of education--something that much of a failure should be nuked. Come to think of it, might want to consider ditching the EPA. It seemed as though they started out as a good idea, but turned into a punitive, leftist advocacy group with the deep pockets of the federal government (taxpayer monies again).

Agree?

snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Thu May 31, 2012 9:27 am

I'd also ditch the dept of education--something that much of a failure should be nuked.


No comment necessary.

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Thu May 31, 2012 8:23 pm

snoqueen wrote:
I'd also ditch the dept of education--something that much of a failure should be nuked.


No comment necessary.

You being a backer of barrett and the milwaukee public schools, I'd not comment either if I were you. Or chicago. Or DC. Or, well, does any large democrat ran city have even average public education levels?

I did a quick check and it looks like--on the federal level alone, about $100,000,000* was spent last year. Great results for 100 million spent per year. And that doesn't count on all the states being bankrupt by their government unionists lush lifestyles and and retirement/healthcare packages.

* This number I'm sure doesn't include CDBG (community development block grants) which are little more than cash given to individual states to spend as they see fit.....

Leftism...the economic black hole of working men and women.

snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Thu May 31, 2012 10:02 pm

...waiting for a list of all the bankrupt states...

Mad Howler
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Mad Howler » Thu May 31, 2012 11:35 pm

Cornbread wrote:
Mad Howler wrote:There can be none if we do not respect the right to assemble and organize.

I have no idea where you're going with this as I have no idea what you're talking about.

Who is denying you the right to assemble? Is this some leftist fabricated argument?
You also have the "right" to organize. But it's really not a "right" as businesses do not have to accept your 'organized group's'


Look, I'm just a populi observing some disturbing structural trends. But hey why are you spouting off about his or hers "organized group's"? It seems that there are many forms of organized groups outside of public sector unions that will be up on the ropes down the road as the barriers are softened and the polictics allow.

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:36 pm

snoqueen wrote:...waiting for a list of all the bankrupt states...

Constitutionally, states can't go bankrupt. NJ, IN, MA, and others have already dealt with the public union anchors around their necks. Oh, and WI. Be interesting to see what becomes of NY as zerobama's wall street bailouts can't prop up that state forever.
But the best of "yet to come" is democrat gov moonbeam in california. Let's see what becomes of CA.

If you want something closer to home, check out how columbus (wi) dealt with their costs v. revenues problems. Guess they couldn't keep raising their property taxes higher and higher and higher.

snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:07 pm

Of course states aren't going bankrupt. I'm glad you got that straightened out.

And are you prepared to show that NJ, IN, and MA are doing so much better than states with public employees' unions now? Are the working class people there better off than elsewhere? If a state is doing better but most of the people in it are worse off, that's a poor outcome not a good outcome.

Just because you like some idea doesn't mean it works or it's better than someone else's idea. The results have to be shown by real world data over time, not merely by repeated declaration.

California's a mess because they can't do much of anything without going the Proposition route.

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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:39 pm

snoqueen wrote:Of course states aren't going bankrupt. I'm glad you got that straightened out.

I didn't realize that nuance was such an issue to you.
So did you chime in on the "walker's love child" leftist smear thread and call them unclassy or whatever other scolding thing you do, or are you just ignoring that?

Anyway, we're (OK, I'm) keeping an eye on CA to see what becomes of gov. moonbeam's state. We (taxpayers) have been bailing out the leftists there for a very long time with block gants and other cash transfers from the federal (us) government to them, but who knows, with the federales in trouble (?), people may actually want to curtail the continual california bailouts.

I guess you're not much of a conceptual thinker.
So does the left ever offend your hit and miss sensibilities?

Are the working class people there better off than elsewhere?

Depends upon how one defines 'working class'. Government unionists aren't working class as they're a very protected and luxury laden select group.

How to judge the health of the working class is to check out the jobs, taxes (property taxes)

If a state is doing better but most of the people in it are worse off, that's a poor outcome not a good outcome.

I guess one then needs look a little deeper into "why".
Is the education level of an area going down because teachers are incompetent? Or are they getting in a lot of non english speaking illegals, that don't value education? Or it's just barrett's milwaukee?

Paraphrasing kathie falk, is madison proof that progressive economics works? Or does madison being the state capital in a strangly (progressive) structured state make it prosperous because almost all tax monies from throughout the state go there to be laundered, then passed on or passed back out to the serfs?

[quote\California's a mess because they can't do much of anything without going the Proposition route.[/quote]
Or it's a mess because of the proposition route?
And with 9 billion or so in debt, leftist gov. moonbeam is all about pushing his 100 million la-sf rail system no one will use.
Or milwaukee's barrett, solving his third world city's problem by building a mega millions two mile trolly?


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