Can there be individual freedom....

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Cornbread
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Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Fri May 25, 2012 8:59 pm

without individual economic freedom?

Is your income "private property"?

Detritus
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Detritus » Fri May 25, 2012 10:33 pm

Cornbread wrote:without individual economic freedom?

Yes.
Is your income "private property"?

Why?

Average Joe
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Average Joe » Sat May 26, 2012 12:25 am

God hates individual freedom.

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Sat May 26, 2012 7:10 pm

Detritus wrote:
Cornbread wrote:without individual economic freedom?

Yes.


So if you shop who you are, your skills, your experiences, your education, your smarts, around, someone will pay you what they think that package of who you are is worth.

That is the front end of individual/economic freedom.
So if government states what anyone and everyone will be paid, is that individual freedom?

On the back end of individuals shopping around who they are to other people, making private contracts (jobs), once the individual gets his check/pay, can the government decide how much is enough and how much is too much?

I hear from the leftists about "excess profits".
How much is enough and how much is then excess?
Last edited by Cornbread on Sat May 26, 2012 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Sat May 26, 2012 7:12 pm

Average Joe wrote:God hates individual freedom.

Where do you come up with such a strange response?
That's so weird on so many levels, I guess I'll just chalk it up to blind and arrogant religion bashing.

Detritus
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Detritus » Sat May 26, 2012 7:26 pm

Cornbread wrote:So if government states what anyone and everyone will be paid, is that individual freedom?

Which government would that be, then?
Cornbread wrote:
Detritus wrote:
Cornbread wrote:Is your income "private property"?

Why?

I'd think because of the above.

The above what? You asked a question--why do you ask it?

snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 26, 2012 7:36 pm

The sixteenth amendment (giving Congress the power to tax incomes) was ratified in 1913.

My grandfather, whom I've mentioned in other contexts on this forum, was a hardcore rebel born in the south 10 years after the civil war and he did NOT want to pay the income tax. You'd have thought somebody was trying to draft him to go to Gallipoli. He made a stink about it for the rest of his life.

In other words, you're 99 years too late and you really need to get over this one, Cornbread. We've been there and done that.
Last edited by snoqueen on Sat May 26, 2012 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Sat May 26, 2012 7:39 pm

Detritus wrote:
Cornbread wrote:So if government states what anyone and everyone will be paid, is that individual freedom?

Which government would that be, then?

Whichever one that has the power to do so.
The US govt's NLRB comes to mind in dictating not only wages, but where businesses can locate. Or can boeing now move to SC?

Or the best example is government unions themselves--they set their own wages and benefits.

Or the minimum wage.
Or that mysterious point of becoming "the rich" or "excess profit" that leftist democrats have spoken about.

Many choices.

Detritus
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Detritus » Sat May 26, 2012 7:54 pm

Cornbread wrote:Whichever one that has the power to do so.
The US govt's NLRB comes to mind in dictating not only wages, but where businesses can locate. Or can boeing now move to SC?

Or the best example is government unions themselves--they set their own wages and benefits.

Or the minimum wage.
Or that mysterious point of becoming "the rich" or "excess profit" that leftist democrats have spoken about.

Many choices.

You really don't have any idea how any of this works, do you? By the way, you owe my five dollars. Government says so.

snoqueen
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 26, 2012 8:20 pm

He's really, really confused.

The NLRB does not dictate wages. Its jurisdiction, moreover, is mostly limited to the private sector.

Government unions -- whatever they are, though I think he means unions of government workers -- don't set wages unilaterally. They negotiate them with the government. The two sides have to agree before a contract is signed.

The minimum wage has little to do with anything we've been discussing.

Those three paragraphs above do not represent three choices -- if they do, who is choosing among them, and under what circumstances?

Where did excess profit come in to the discussion? What is it? Who is becoming rich? What's that got to do with anything?

Even allowing for just about everything I can think of, I can't figure out what he's even trying to talk about.

Suggestion: After writing a post, stand up, walk around, come back, and read it over to yourself before you hit submit. If it doesn't make sense to you, it won't make sense to anyone else.

Assignment: Write a 250-word essay on how a union and an employer negotiate a contract.

Average Joe
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Average Joe » Sat May 26, 2012 10:26 pm

Cornbread wrote:
Average Joe wrote:God hates individual freedom.

Where do you come up with such a strange response?
That's so weird on so many levels, I guess I'll just chalk it up to blind and arrogant religion bashing.


If God was for individual freedom He wouldn't be threatening everyone with eternal damnation if they don't play by His rules. Sure, He gives you individual freedom, but woe is you if you express it.

Cornbread
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Cornbread » Sun May 27, 2012 11:02 pm

snoqueen wrote:He's really, really confused.

Nope--I toss out a lot of (related) things.

The NLRB does not dictate wages. Its jurisdiction, moreover, is mostly limited to the private sector.


What happened again to a private sector business (boeing) wanting to move some of their production to another state (south carolina) again? Zerobam's appointed national labor relations board said "no".

What gives them the 'right'? I guess the same 'right' the leftists feel they have to impose catholics fund abortions and contraception and every individual be forced to buy health insurance........

Government unions -- whatever they are

Government employees that are forced to join a union as a condition of their employment. But on the bright side, they're almost impossible to fire. :D

The minimum wage has little to do with anything we've been discussing.

I don't know of anyone that works for min wage, so why all the leftist democrat propaganda about it then?

Where did excess profit come in to the discussion?

hillary clinton in wanting to confiscate, I mean 'tax' what she called 'excess profit'. Zerobams hisself even said that at one point, people have made enough money.

What is it?


That's the trip--who gets to decide how much is enough for you, me or godzilla? Unions are stuck with their pre-negotiated wage, so good, bad, lame or lousy they all get the same. If someone is really good and works really hard, shouldn't they get more money? And if so, how much? You and your friends on some board decide what my employer should pay me and anything more, you'll confiscate in the form of taxes?

Why do you want to control (and punish) me or others?

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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon May 28, 2012 6:50 am

Cornbread wrote:So if you shop who you are, your skills, your experiences, your education, your smarts, around, someone will pay you what they think that package of who you are is worth. That is the front end of individual/economic freedom.
So if government states what anyone and everyone will be paid, is that individual freedom? On the back end of individuals shopping around who they are to other people, making private contracts (jobs), once the individual gets his check/pay, can the government decide how much is enough and how much is too much?
I hear from the leftists about "excess profits".
How much is enough and how much is then excess?

If you are looking for individual/economic freedom why would you "shop" yourself around in a commodity economy based on wage paid labor, purchasing your livelihood in the open market? In exchange for a wage/salary you would not own your job, nor have any part in deciding economic policy, nor in selecting those who carried policy into effect, policy which effects your livelihood. The many unemployed today have not lost their jobs through any fault of their own, yet they find themselves workless, in an economy based on cash payment for the necessaries.
Accept your "front end of individual/economic freedom" with its implications and ramifications, and you become a helpless cog in an impersonal, implacable, merciless machine operated to make rich men richer and powerful men more powerful. But, that is your choice, right?

rabble
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby rabble » Mon May 28, 2012 9:30 am

That "front end" only exists for a small segment of the population now. What they're looking for is the absolute cheapest labor they can get to turn out the lowest possible quality that the market will accept, and they want to be able to dump that labor any time they want for any reason.

It used to be that most employers held their long-term employees in high regard. I remember that time. They were still assholes but they considered the peons who'd been good peons for many years to be assets that enhanced their organizations' cohesion, and elevated them to a favored level of chattel.

That isn't the case any more. As Stella points out, when the feudal system shifts, the peons shift with it whether they like it or not. And always, some of them will become better bootlickers and call it part of their skill package.

Stella_Guru
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Re: Can there be individual freedom....

Postby Stella_Guru » Mon May 28, 2012 12:33 pm

rabble wrote: What they're looking for is the absolute cheapest labor they can get.... and they want to be able to dump that labor any time they want for any reason.

And don't forget, it is special privilege for the wealthlords to organize into a unified group concerning wages and benefits, pooling ideas and interests to present a solid front to the needs of workers and the efforts of the public to enforce regulation. They want a worker who must as an individual, approach them and secure their permission to earn a living, must be prepared to accept the poverty of a subsistence wage, to give the best of their energies and to stand aside while the imperial class enjoys the fat of the land.


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