Mitt Romney 2012

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
pjbogart
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby pjbogart » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:07 am

What is it that he's hiding, John? You're a curious guy, aren't you curious why Mitt Romney only wants to release one year of his taxes to the public when he released 22 years to the McCain camp in 2008? Some of the stuff is, as you point out, legal but perhaps embarrassing. Like deducting hundreds of thousands of dollars to train your dancing horse. But he can move past that... "It's something important to my wife, I have the money to pay for it and my accountant says I can deduct the expenses."

Besides, Mitt Romney is pushing the idea that the rich pay too much in taxes. Well, show us. If you're going to push legislation that specifically benefits yourself, I think you have an obligation to be a little bit more open about just how much you would benefit.

rabble
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby rabble » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:28 am

Golly gee, John. Didn't you write a paper on this?

You sure take up a lot of words to feign obtuseness.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:38 am

pjbogart wrote:What is it that he's hiding, John? You're a curious guy, aren't you curious why Mitt Romney only wants to release one year of his taxes


I thought I had been clear on why I think Romney only wants to release 1 year of taxes. At the present time

I even have a bet with OJ about it.

I doubt that he is hiding anything. I think that he is leading you, and others like you, on. You are going off on a false trail, wasting your time and energies on this rather than something that might be important. If nothing else, it causes great performance art by demmies and their supporters. As I said, I think he is laughing up his sleeve.

I think he will eventually release tax returns and you will find nothing significant to complain about in them.

FWIW, I have no curiosity about his taxes. I am assuming that he has followed the laws and beyond that it is none of my business. Even if he is Prez. I have a lot of problems with the tax code generally, but no problem with people avoiding taxes within the law. I expect nothing less. I assume that you avoid taxes to the extent you can. I think everyone should.

pjbogart wrote:Like deducting hundreds of thousands of dollars to train your dancing horse. But he can move past that... "It's something important to my wife, I have the money to pay for it and my accountant says I can deduct the expenses."


I don't see why that would necessarily be embarrassing. First, if she is deducting expenses on the horse, it is because it is a business and generates income. She can only deduct expenses against the income and will then pay taxes on what is left.

Same as if you have an Amazon reseller account. You can deduct expenses related to that account from any income you receive from it. You cannot deduct expenses for it beyond what it brings in income. Though I think in both cases the income and expenses can be averaged over 5 years.

Second, it could be a teachable moment. He can get up on his hind legs and say something like:

"You think being able to deduct expenses for a dancing horse is ridiculous? Well, so do I. That is why when I am elected president I will do away with all these frivolous deductions. I will impose a flat tax of 17% on all incomes over $40,000" (Or whatever the numbers work out to)

If the deductions are allowed under the tax code, are you saying that he should not take them?

Do you game the tax code by insulating your house and then taking the tax credit/deduction? Sauce for the goose and all that.


pjbogart wrote:Besides, Mitt Romney is pushing the idea that the rich pay too much in taxes.


EVERYONE pays too much in taxes. Govt spending and borrowing is way too high. Cut spending and you can cut taxes for everyone.

My problem with Romney is that, while he talks about cutting spending, I doubt he will do it. I am counting on a TP Congress and Senate to save us. Yes, I know it is a Hail Mary hope. It is all we've got.

Go Obie!

John Henry

DCB
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby DCB » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:42 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
rabble wrote:
And I'd like to know why the more money you have, the less taxes you pay, and why, if they need that money to create jobs, they haven't been creating any jobs.



Generally speaking nobody pays federal taxes on the "money they have". You sound confused here.

Perhaps you mean "the more money they earn?"

Maybe. But it really works both ways.

Rich people, people who currently have a lot of money, generally pay a lower tax rate that the everyone else.

To answer rabble's question, I think the answer is that the people who have money use that money to influence the politicians to rig the tax systems so that they pay lower taxes.

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby wack wack » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:53 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:As I said, I think he is laughing up his sleeve.
John Henry


As I said the last time you mentioned it, Romney had nothing to laugh about it. And now his Ryan pick gives him even less room for laughter.

Here's why Romney needs to release his tax returns: he is not one of us, or even like one of us. He is not qualified to be president because he doesn't know what the real American experience is about. He is not qualified to lead what he doesn't understand, and his tax returns will make clear to most of America just how inappropriate a Romney presidency would be.

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:58 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:EVERYONE pays too much in taxes. Govt spending and borrowing is way too high. Cut spending and you can cut taxes for everyone.

And your plan to pay off the national debt is...?

Mean Scenester
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby Mean Scenester » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:04 pm

The real reason Romney won't release his tax returns is that they don't exist. He faked them with the help of a Hawaiian newspaper. Because he's not really an American. He's a secret Muslim.

Or something.

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby Galoot » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:17 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
EVERYONE pays too much in taxes. Govt spending and borrowing is way too high. Cut spending and you can cut taxes for everyone.


That sounds like a faith statement to me. You surely realize that federal taxes are at the lowest level in over 60 years, right?

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby HawkHead » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:24 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote: I don't see why that would necessarily be embarrassing. First, if she is deducting expenses on the horse, it is because it is a business and generates income. She can only deduct expenses against the income and will then pay taxes on what is left.
Same as if you have an Amazon reseller account. You can deduct expenses related to that account from any income you receive from it. You cannot deduct expenses for it beyond what it brings in income. Though I think in both cases the income and expenses can be averaged over 5 years.


This is a complete falsehood everyting highlighted above.

You obviously have no grasp of the tax code only key words and phrase to make yourself sound knowledgible on the subject.

You can deduct all expenses in a business, it doesn't matter if you generate income or not from the business. The losses in one business can offset the income from other sources. I make $100,000 in business A and lose $50,000 on zero income in business B, on the bottom line I pick up $50,000 in income.

Maybe a vaginal probe will stimulate your memory on the tax code. I think only then can we know if you are American enough.

To the other forum users, I apologize for the trolling last sentences.

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby jman111 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:47 pm

I love this direct quote from Paul Ryan's Romney-supported "Path to Prosperity"
Corporate tax reform: American businesses are overburdened by one of the highest corporate income tax rates in the developed world. The perverse incentives created by the corporate income tax do a lot of damage to both workers and investors, yet the tax itself raises relatively little revenue.

So these corporate tax rates that place such a huge burden on businesses admittedly raise little revenue. Why is that? Perhaps because businesses don't actually pay the supposedly high rates?

So, even though the country is asking for a "relatively little" amount of revenue from the profits of businesses, even that is asking too much.

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby Slick Willy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:01 pm

HawkHead wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:This is a complete falsehood everyting highlighted above.

"Everything?"
"Everyting!"
Love you long time

HawkHead
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby HawkHead » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:58 pm

Slick Willy wrote:
HawkHead wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:This is a complete falsehood everyting highlighted above.

"Everything?"
"Everyting!"
Love you long time


Well considering I highlighted two things. Yes, every one of the two is wrong.

snoqueen
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby snoqueen » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:29 pm

You obviously have no grasp of the tax code[,] only [making a collage of] key words and phrase to make yourself sound knowledgible on the subject.


Please forgive my augmenting your hastily written sentence.

That poster does the same copy and paste thing constantly, as does Cbread. It's as if they look something up on line, pick out words that sound big, and mash them all together in an effort to get us off on a tangent so the actual question never gets addressed.

It's not worthy of a response, but still people try which is a good sign. At least we're trying to engage these types and make sense of their nonsense.

Still, with this particular guy I don't bother reading any more. Gives me too much of a headache to even try.

johnfajardohenry
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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:24 pm

HawkHead wrote:This is a complete falsehood everyting highlighted above.

You obviously have no grasp of the tax code only key words and phrase to make yourself sound knowledgible on the subject.


Only thing I am wrong on is the 5 years. Hobby farms are 5 years, I figured horses would be the same. Horses are 7. Other than that, and other than simplifying a bit, I think I was right on.

See this bulletin from the IRS:

Business or Hobby? Answer Has Implications for Deductions


FS-2007-18, April 2007

The Internal Revenue Service reminds taxpayers to follow appropriate guidelines when determining whether an activity is a business or a hobby, an activity not engaged in for profit.

In order to educate taxpayers regarding their filing obligations, this fact sheet, the eleventh in a series, explains the rules for determining if an activity qualifies as a business and what limitations apply if the activity is not a business. Incorrect deduction of hobby expenses account for a portion of the overstated adjustments, deductions, exemptions and credits that add up to $30 billion per year in unpaid taxes, according to IRS estimates.

In general, taxpayers may deduct ordinary and necessary expenses for conducting a trade or business. An ordinary expense is an expense that is common and accepted in the taxpayer’s trade or business. A necessary expense is one that is appropriate for the business. Generally, an activity qualifies as a business if it is carried on with the reasonable expectation of earning a profit.(emph added)

<snip>

The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year — at least two of the last seven years for activities that consist primarily of breeding, showing, training or racing horses.

If an activity is not for profit, losses from that activity may not be used to offset other income. (emph added JRH) An activity produces a loss when related expenses exceed income. The limit on not-for-profit losses applies to individuals, partnerships, estates, trusts, and S corporations. It does not apply to corporations other than S corporations.
<Snip>

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,, ... 90,00.html


HawkHead wrote:You can deduct all expenses in a business, it doesn't matter if you generate income or not from the business. The losses in one business can offset the income from other sources.


Correct but only if the expenses are from a "business" (as defined in the IRS brochure) and not from a hobby. And it is only a "business" if it is operated with the intention of making a profit.

So the question would be, does Ms Romney run her dressage stable as a business? The little I have seen about it leads me to believe it is a hobby, not a business. (Under IRS rules)

John Henry

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Re: Mitt Romney 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:42 pm

DCB wrote:Rich people, people who currently have a lot of money, generally pay a lower tax rate that the everyone else.


I think you are confusing wealth and income again. Must be something in the water. Lots of people seem to make that mistake in this forum.

People who have a lot of money may not earn very much money.

And vice-versa.

Look at Warren Buffett, for example. He has been the richest man in America for many of the past 30 years, certainly in the top 3-4 in all of them.

I don't know what his wealth currently is but probably in the scores of billions.

Yet until fairly recently, he earned very little income. Other than a house and a few personal assets all his assets were tied up in Berkshire-Hathaway which has famously never paid a dividend. (Current share price about $125,000 each)

Buffett's only income was his B-H salary as president which was in the $125-150,000/yr range.

So high wealth, low (relatively) income.

Low income = low income taxes.

Lots of wealthy people take their money and put it into investments that generate relatively little income. For example govt bonds. Or land. Since they have little income, they pay little in income taxes.

You (and others here) really need make up your minds whether you want to talk about income or wealth. Two completely different things, taxed completely differently.

I suspect that in Wisconsin you have lots of multimillionaires who make less than $50-75,000/year. They are often called "farmers".


John Henry


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