If Obamacare goes down

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Huckleby
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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Huckleby » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:32 pm

Comrade wrote:How did this mess that is healthcare come to be in the UK? Do you know when and how it started and what the people were promised?

The UK system is far from a "mess." Even with their heavy buraucracy, they achieve better health outcomes than we do, at a lower cost, with EVERY citizens able to get care with no out-of-pocket worries.

Their system was started by socialists after WW II, if memory serves.

UK is trying to introduce more privitization into their system.

Not sure why you are obsessed with U.K., it is so far from what anybody in our country is contemplating.

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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby DCB » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:08 am

Huckleby wrote:
snoqueen wrote:If the whole healthcare act went down and deregulation was implemented, how would you propose a (say) 55 year old man making $25,000/year with (say) one dependent get healthcare?


Right. And fiscal conservatives on both sides of aisle are in agreement that the age of medicare eligibility needs to be raised.

Those 'fiscal conservatives' have desk jobs. They might feel differently they jobs were more physically demanding.

Comrade
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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Comrade » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:51 am

I am not obsessed with the UK. I simply offered it as direct evidence to contradict Henry's assertion and he responded by changing the subject because he did not like that fact. One could say the exact same thing for Germany. Even Canada has rationing as there is a continuos line of Canadians coming south for treatment. Only difference there is that there is less rationing as they are using their natural resources (ie selling oil) to fund their programs. Think that is likely to happen here as in ANWAR? I don't think so....

Back to the question in my last post. It is very relevant to see how what happened in the UK and how it was sold to the people and how it changed over time. Wouldn't it be a good idea to avoid mistakes others have made? Seriously, you might want to research this....

Henry Vilas
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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:58 am

The present health care system in the U.S. rations care to a much greater extent than the rest of the industrialized world. Fifty million Americans have nothing to fall back on except emergency room treatment.

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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby pjbogart » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:53 am

Railing on the UK's health system is a favorite sport of FoxNews and right-wing radio. Pointing out that the English system is substantially different than anything proposed in the PPACA is like pointing out that there was never actually any plan to build a mosque at Ground Zero. Truth isn't a particularly valuable commodity for such folks.

Comrade wrote:Only difference there is that there is less rationing as they are using their natural resources (ie selling oil) to fund their programs. Think that is likely to happen here as in ANWAR? I don't think so...


Wow. Congratulations on merging two separate right-wing talking points. So you're saying that maybe you'd consider universal healthcare if it was funded by the ocean of oil currently hidden in ANWR? That would be the best month America ever saw.

Huckleby
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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:49 pm

Jeffrey Toobin, the CNN legal reporter who was in the Supreme Court today, described the govenment's presentation as "a train wreck." I guess the gov's attorney got flustered under barrage of questioning from 5 conservative justices.

Toobin also noted that the 4 liberal justices were clearly and overwhelmingly in favor of the mandate, they acted as advocates. None of the 5 conservative justices shows the slightest hint that they were open to any line of reasoning to support it.

It's ironic that the idea for the mandate originated from conservatives back in the 1990's, now it's an unconstitutional socialist plot.

The Supreme Court is just as politicized as the general public. There are credible consitutional arguments on both sides of this debate, the justices have chosen to accept the arguments that match their political ideology.

Well, the mandate is toast. Probably the medicaid expansion will stick. Health care costs, in particular insurance costs, will continue to rise, and Republicans will not be able to blame it on Obamacare. The debate now moves on to "Medicare for All", and the Dems will win in the end.

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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby wack wack » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:12 pm

Comrade wrote:I am not obsessed with the UK. I simply offered it as direct evidence to contradict Henry's assertion and he responded by changing the subject because he did not like that fact. One could say the exact same thing for Germany. Even Canada has rationing as there is a continuos line of Canadians coming south for treatment. Only difference there is that there is less rationing as they are using their natural resources (ie selling oil) to fund their programs. Think that is likely to happen here as in ANWAR? I don't think so....

Back to the question in my last post. It is very relevant to see how what happened in the UK and how it was sold to the people and how it changed over time. Wouldn't it be a good idea to avoid mistakes others have made? Seriously, you might want to research this....


Links? I can't tell if you're misunderstanding something you're reading, or flat-out lying.

You did not provide any "direct evidence," only opinion.

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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:38 pm

Huckleby wrote:The debate now moves on to "Medicare for All", and the Dems will win in the end.

Very true. If Toobin's bet is correct, this is very good news for Obama's reelection team (though there is no way they can afford to admit it).

Huckleby
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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:48 pm

Meade wrote:If Toobin's bet is correct, this is very good news for Obama's reelection team (though there is no way they can afford to admit it).


Maybe. There are lots of ways the politics can play out, very unpredictable.

I think it's very bad for the country. "Medicare for All" drive will freeze any effort to deal with deficit. The country will become more polarized, as hard as that is to imagine from here.

No, Obamacare going down is very bad development for the country. It may take a long, brutal fight before Medicare is expanded to all, and the health care system will crumble (with resulting misery) in mean time.

Huckleby
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Re: If Obamacare goes down

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:21 pm

I'm angry with the constitutional scholars and politicians who arrogantly insisted that of course the mandate is constitutional.

It does not matter a bit that there are strong arguments for saying that a mandate is constitutional. What matters is that there is a credible argument, even if weak, that the mandate is unconsitutional. The justices are human beings, and the health care bill brings out the strong political biases in all of us. The justices are leaning towards the policy they think is best, and grasping on to the available constitutional rationale for their position.

All congress had to do was declare the penalty a tax and the bill would be home free. But no, they got cute with the politics and left a gaping constitutional vulnerability. Such hubris and blindness.


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